What's the Role of the GM? w/ Zakariah - The Puzzle Master & The Referee

Are you tired of people not talking about what taking on the role of the Game Master actually means in TTRPGs? What does it mean to portray the world? What does it mean to be the bad guys, good guys, and NPCs in the story? What are your responsibilities during the game? 

That is what Zakariah and I talk about in today's episode of The RPG Goblin!

Join us as we discuss what the role of the GM is and our personal opinions and takes on this topic! Plus learn what it takes to become a Puzzle master!

You can find Zakariah on DMsGuild by searching his name "Zakariah"! 

Or click this link here!: https://www.dmsguild.com/browse.php?keywords=Zakariah&x=0&y=0&author=&artist=&pfrom=&pto=

Transcript

0:00

Are you a lover and a player of D and D and other TTRPGs, and you just love them so much? And you either want to run these games or you already do. But the one thing is is, like, what does running ATTRPG mean? What does being the game master or the dungeon master or the keeper mean? What is your role when it comes to these games, and what are your responsibilities when you play them and what isn't your responsibility when you play them. That is exactly what we are gonna be discussing on today's episode of the RPG Goblin is the role of the game master, which I am really, really excited about because I bring on Zachariah, and we just have a conversation about what other people's views of the game master are, what is his interpretation of what the role of the game master is. How he uses that in his own games and how it changes the way he preps and runs the game and how simple is always better. Like, it's all kinds of different things. And if you haven't run a TTRPG game yet and you really want to, I highly recommend listening to this episode at least to see what is the framework of being a game master. And even if you already run these games, I still recommend you listen to this so because if anything, you can come out of it with ideas and inspiration of what does it mean for me to be the game master. So if that sounds all fine and dandy and like an absolutely fantastic time, which it is, let's get into the episode. Welcome everyone to the RPG Goblin, a TTRPG podcast that makes learning and exploring these games fun and easy along with we talk about cool TTRPG things in general, like, today's episode is going to be about the role of the GM, which I will talk about in just a moment, because first, I do have to introduce myself. Hi. My name is Willow, and I am the host of the RPG Goblin. I am the resident goblin and the one who asks all the questions because I love these games and I'm just endlessly curious and won't stop talking. And like I said, today's episode, we are gonna be talking about the role of the GM. Also, like, why the GM? Where the GM? Who the GM? All of all of the questions involving the GM and game master today. We will probably shift between using GM and DM, while we're talking about this just because both of them are very common common ways to say that. And in today's episode, we have on the amazing guest of Zachariah. Zachariah has been on a few times already, and it's been a pleasure every single time. And so I'm very excited to have him on again and talk about the role of the GM. And so, Zachariah, would you like to introduce yourself to everyone, telling people who you are, where they can find things that you do and so forth. Yeah. Hi. I am Zachariah. I am a dungeon master, and I Have been into these games for years at this point, played thousands of hours of this game, various tabletop games actually. And I also like to create content, for other people's games because when I am not running my own games, I'm generating content that I would like to play at some point. And so I take all the things that don't really fit into my game or even things that I've recently run and I condense it and I put it on the g, DM's Guild. So if you look up Zachariah in the search bar on DM skilled, you'll see a list of all 49 packets I've published onto DM skilled at this point, which was very exciting to see. That's so much. Good job. Thanks. Yeah. So it's z a k a r I a h On DM's Guild and, it'll it'll populate all of the results that are tagged with, with me as the author. Perfect. That's amazing. And I have I have gotten some of this content myself and it is fantastic, so I can recommend. And I will have a link as well to Zacharia's DM's guild in the description of this episode too if you want to quickly find that as well. But yeah. So we are gonna be talking about the role of the GM today, which is something I'm very excited about because I remember this came from I know we were talking like, yeah. We need to do another episode, and you sent, like, this whole list. And I remember specifically the role of the GM popping out is like, oh, that seems like a really interesting same topic to bring on and talk about. And so, I'm curious of why that was something that popped up in your mind to talk about. I think it's one of those things that, when you're playing when you're first starting out, you don't really question because it's like, okay. I'm playing a tabletop game for the 1st time. There's always a DM or a game master or a storyteller just written into the rules. Mhmm. But I think that if you actually, like, were to consider what the Job of the DM is, I think that that can assist you in doing a better job. It's almost like if you, if you're going in for a position at a company and they don't outline what your responsibilities are and they just say go. Like, you can infer what your responsibilities are, but it you can sell at them if you actually know clearly what you're supposed to be doing. And it turns out and and it turns out for the DM role in Particular. There's a lot of different ideas of what the role of the DM is supposed to be, so I think it's worth thinking about. Yeah. No. I think that is that's a very good way to describe it. You know, you don't know what job you're getting into until you start plain and then you realize, hey. This has a lot of responsibilities attached. Mhmm. And so I think that's why some people do feel like they kinda get stuck in the role of being a GM, which is unfortunate because you should never feel like you're stuck in any particular role when you're playing these games because you're all supposed to be having fun. Well, I think it's also one of the things that is, Maybe we'll circle back to this in more detail later, but, it's one of the things that is sort of, like, for new, for new Players or people who want to be the DM at their table, why they don't wanna do it is because they don't think they can or they don't feel like they have the they're not equipped to do it. And I think a good chunk of that comes from not knowing what their job is. Right? Like, am I supposed to know every single rule of the game? Am I supposed to have, like, a ton how much prep Work beforehand is enough to get started. All of those sorts of, like, practical things that, you know, more experienced DMs have their own, like, routines and tips and tricks and things that they picked up through like, like tribal knowledge about what it takes to be a DM. When you don't have that tribal knowledge yet, it can seem like this hugely intimidating thing, to become the DM, the person who's quote, unquote in charge of the game, but, I mean, I would even say that that's a contentious thing to say. It's like, Are you in charge of the game? But But you're just playing with your friends. Like, I I'd hope that not 1 person's in charge. Can Yeah. But but but, you know, to what degree does responsibility fall upon you versus other people? I think that that can be intimidating for a lot of people before they start out. And you need In some of these games, you kind of need, somebody to take on the responsibilities of of the DM, just to facilitate the game. And if no one's willing to do it, well, you don't have a game. So I think if if you can start off with A clear idea of what are your jobs as a DM and, you know, how much responsibility is yours versus the rest of your players. I think that that can be, like, a good first step of, like, yeah, you can do this. Because Yeah. I I genuinely think that, you know, they're they're Well, I don't think. There is a deficit of DMs versus players. Right? Like, there's absolutely way more people who want to play, But can't because they don't have a DM to run their game. So what you need to do is you need to make more DMs. You create create more. Yeah. No. Absolutely. I mean, I agree with that because most people, if you look at, post where it's like, I I I'm looking for a game, it's usually a player. And most people don't want to take up that role of a GM because, like you said, it is scary and you don't really know what your job is you need that experience and all of that which is just really interesting. That's how the how all of the culture seems to go in the direction of. And always making the GM's job seem really, really complicated when that's also a lot of the time up to personal preference of how you want to play your games. You don't need to have like 10 pages of prep done before every single session to be a good GM. And so I think a lot of people get it in, like, think that, oh, to be a GM, I have to be able to write an entire world and story that, that ties in with a grand world where there's all kinds of little moving parts. Then I have 10 pages of prep every session, and every NPC is diverse and interesting and and all of these things when that is such an insane that's such an insane way to look at that role because that's not what it is most of the time. Like, yeah, you these might be goals that you want to accomplish, but right off the bat, that's usually not the kind of game that you're gonna be running because you're still learning. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that there's definitely also, like, DM ing styles Mhmm. That you could pick up 1 versus another. There's also the amount of prep. I'm gonna just gonna make a note of that for later, amount of prep, because there are some very good resources about both of those Things of, like, what is your DM ing style, as far as preparation, and also what amount of prep is sufficient in order to actually just sit down and play the game. Yep. Just in case, anybody who is listening to this has, like, questions about, like because your preference Seems to be for GM. I tend to say DM. That does kind of have to do with, I guess, more of just, like, the introduction to the tabletop Role playing game space that each of us have had, and personal preference. Right? Yeah. Sure. So Dungeon Master is DM, that comes from Dungeons and Dragons, which has dungeons in it typically as a mechanic of the game. And even if it doesn't have a literal dungeon in it, it mechanically has a space which is hostile wherein the adventures have to delve into, therefore, a dungeon even if it takes the form of a forest or a sky castle. Right? Like, it's Still a dungeon Mhmm. In that game, where game master is a little bit more general purpose because dungeon master is Copyrighted by, Wizards of the Coast. Mhmm. So game master is the more, like, General term, but you can also inform that infer by the title that game master is also covering A lot more ground than dungeon master. Right? Like, you you your game may not have dungeons. Your game might have mechanics that are Highly narrative based. Game master is kind of a catchall for it and is probably more accurate. I'm still gonna say DM because It's what falls out of my face, but I I I terrible. Yeah. I I will acknowledge that, like, there is There there is actually more accuracy to game master, but, of course, there's a 1000000000 titles for this role in different games. Oh my lord. There are so many. It's like storyteller and keeper. Then there's, like, keeper of mysteries and and, gosh. There's like, what was the one it's like a castle. There there's a 1000000 titles in yeah. Castle keeper I'm is another one I know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's there's so many. And and the gist of it is that you can kind of infer sort of the, like, implied role of the DM in that game, at least from the intention of the game Clyde role of the DM in that game, at least from the intention of the game designers, from what they decide to call their GM. Right? Yes. But all in all, it is a very similar role. And I think that fundamentally, there are some things in common between all of them that you could Condense down the role of the, DM into, you know, a couple of distinct features That they all share because, like, whether you're playing Vampire the Masquerade or you're playing Fall of Cthulhu or you're playing Dungeons and Dragons, like, There's some things that that person being there is going to be doing. Absolutely. And these are these are kind of, I guess, the core roles of the game master. And so I'm I'm curious in in the way that you said that, I feel like you may have some that you would like to give as examples. I have opinions. I have strong opinions. You've brought opinions to your podcast. Yeah. So so I I actually I wanna actually kinda start, by segueing in with a little bit of just like, I've heard some I've heard multiple good examples relatively good examples of what the role of a of a DM is. Mhmm. And I once heard it described as you're the rules arbiter, you're the world builder, and you're the villain. And before I get to what I feel about, like, what I feel the responsibility of the DM is, I did kind of want Go on a bit of a side tangent about the about the the GM as the role of the villain because I hear this and I See it a lot, and I think it's a bad take. Mhmm. So I wanna climb on a soapbox for a second and explain Absolutely. Well, because, like, I think that because I think that there is, like, this idea of, like, oh, well, you've created the villain of the game. Right? Like, whatever antagonistic force there is in your game that your players have to solve or or, you know, defeat. Like, you're responsible because you are the villain, but I think that putting it on the GM that they are the villain Is I think that the the way that that is phrased makes it sound like The GM has the same job as the villain, and I wouldn't describe the author of a book As being the villain of the book. Yeah. Like, I wouldn't I wouldn't characterize the author as villain, And so I wouldn't characterize the GM as villain. You created them, but you created them with different intentions from them. Because, like, villain's intentions are to, you know, grab the MacGuffin and destroy the world. Right? The GM's goal are directly counter to that because what you're trying to do is you're trying to defeat the villain as well. You're trying to get your players Into the position to defeat them. So you can't align your goals Between GM and villain because they are fundamentally opposed. You want your villain to lose. Yeah. The whole thing is that you I mean, you're leading the way for your players. You are all working together for the same goal, of finishing this arc, this story, whatever, which is usually defeating a villain. And to just say that, yeah. No. The GM's just the villain is really I it it it's nothing. Well, yeah, it's like it's like a it's a collaborative game. Like, I think, fundamentally, tabletop role playing games are collaborative Storytelling and Yes. And the collaborative element of that kind of requires that there is a villain, but your DM is Not the villain. And so I before, you know, I I have heard this from more than 1, like, Like, DM that I respect that they are the villain, and I think it's not the best way to characterize it. Because while you do generate villains, I mean, you're a villain churning machine. Right? As as the As the person running the game, you crank out new villains every week. Mhmm. But but that is not your job. Yes. You do have to decide what the villain is doing, but, again, like like the author of a book writing down a villain, it's like, well, I don't think that, You know, I don't think that the author is the villain of their story. I don't think Stephen King is it. Right? Like, he, Like, the the character of Pennywise is a character that was created by the author as an antagonist for a story, and that's exactly DM falls a little bit closer to that. Exactly. And I would like to say as well kinda thinking of the game master as the villain as well, with it being a collaborative game it makes it so that there's kind of tension between the players and the GM if you view them that way. Like, oh, they're the villain. They're trying to ruin my life. They're trying to ruin my character's life. Like, they are out to get us versus, no, we're all just telling the story together when conflicts happen and obstacles arise. That's just because that's how a story works. Know because they're out to get you. Yeah. And I and I do think that there is a long and healthy tradition in tabletop role playing games of DM as antagonist and and having an antagonistic DM. Mhmm. But I think that It boils down to all of those stories are, at least in a modern sense, viewed negatively. Mhmm. Even if there is, like, a strong history of, like, convention play where you'd be playing with a DM and their their primary goal would be to kill you. Mhmm. And it's actually a good point brought up by the module of, Tomb of Horrors, is actually, so when Gygak Gary Gygak's created Tomb of Horrors, sort of the The goal of that module was to express to his players that they are not invincible. Mhmm. Because And, I mean, this is obvious when you say it, but it's like, if the if the DM running the game wants your character dead, they're going to die. Yeah. Like like, if that is the goal, then you lose. Mhmm. So so As an example of that, there's this sort of, like, you know, death trap riddled super unfair, quote, unquote, dungeon that was Created as an example of if you think that your character is, like, unkillable, it's just it's because the DM is letting it be unkillable. If you think that your character is getting screwed over, it is because the DM is a 100% trying to screw you over. Right? Like Like like, if your character if you find yourself in an impossible situation, the DM presented an impossible scenario to you perhaps. And those aren't necessarily bad things to do because there there are points in in stories where there are impossible situations and things like that. That just shouldn't be the entire story. Like, it shouldn't all be impossible, like, against your players. Well, also, I mean, I think in in, like, in a in a very clever fashion, there is no impossible scenario in Tomb of Horrors either. It seems Impossible. It seems very unfair, but there is actually a way to get through it. Oh, there is. I I heard many people talk about it. It. Like, thousands of people have completed the Tomb of Horrors. So it it feels super impossible and unfair and is absolutely designed to challenge Very high level players, but It was designed that way. Yeah. Yeah. It it is it is designed to make a point. Mhmm. And it and honestly, I mean, to that effect, Gygax was a bit of a petty DM. From everything that I've grown to understand, like, the, You know, using the game as a way to exemplify certain behaviors or, you know, dis Yeah. Like, disincentivize other behaviors was absolutely on the table. The dude was definitely more of an antagonistic DM than I think anybody in the space today would be okay with. Yeah. And I mean, like, of course, there's always it it's all dependent on the games that you want to play. If you do want to play games that have more of an antagonistic DM, then you know, that's that's for you and your group to decide Yeah. If that is something that you would like. And so I don't think it's that healthy for the Space overall though to No. Absolutely. Introduce that or introduce somebody to the game with that attitude. Like, if that's what you to play. I think that introducing people to a more collaborative space is important. It's sort of, like, why you don't start off, Why I wouldn't start off playing a game that has a ton of homebrew rules first introducing somebody to the space. It's like, you'll probably wanna play a game closer The rules is written when you're starting out for the same reason that you would probably want to be a positive collaborative Experience because you're introducing somebody new, and you want them to come back. So you should be a good example. And keep it just, like, easy and basic too. Like, that's such a good way to introduce people to the space because they get a taste of the game and then they get comfortable with the game before like they need to be comfortable before they can really start to branch out and be like, oh, man. It would be really interesting to be, like, someone that might be against the party. Like, that's something insanely tricky to do, and that's why that's at least I've seen several times, people will never let a player play that kind of role unless they have years of experience of playing these types of games. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think that there's there's there's definitely, like, a a line to walk there as far as, like, Doing it well and doing it in a way that isn't disruptive and antagonistic because, again, like, it's a collaborative game. And that's fun for everyone because with that kind of role as well, you have to still work with the party. Mhmm. You just have to do it in a way it's it's it's just such a tight rope to to walk on. It's so interesting. But I I would kind of say I would kind of say that that is exactly along the lines of any character in any game open slow to trust people. Mhmm. I think that that kind of falls into the same category of, like, I don't think if you're a new player that you should Play a character that is slow to trust because doing that edgy or, like, a loner type, anything like that. Yeah. Because I think that if you're playing somebody who's Like, well, I have difficulty trusting people. It's like, well, that's I think that that's difficult to do in a collaborative setting. Mhmm. Not impossible by all means. There there are Probably thousands of examples of characters from popular TV shows and other media that you could point to and be like, oh, but look at this character. They're Slow to trust, and they're sort of a loner type. And it's like and I love those characters, but I will say that in a collaborative game As your introduction, I think it's a lot harder to know when to when to bend as that kind of character because it's like, well, you still have to go somewhere with the rest The the party. Otherwise, there's no game. Yeah. The game stops at the tavern. Everybody meets, but 1 person's left behind, and then they can just go, I don't know. They can go bartend or something for the rest of the session. Yeah. No. It's it's rough. But I I again, this is where it's we definitely don't get off topic on this show. Yeah. No. So, I'd like to then talk about kind of one of the other roles that you introduced, which just the rule, oh, shit. What word did you use? Oh, I had said rule arbiter because Rule arbiter. Yeah. I've heard it I've heard it Condensed on a number of occasions as, like, rule arbiter, world builder, and the villain. And Mhmm. I think that I can say, I would condense world builder and villain into 1 role, and then I would separate the other role of rules arbiter as referee. Mhmm. So I guess that I could kinda go into what my idea is of the role of the DM then. Yeah. Yeah. How like yeah. Go into that. I'm very curious. So the way that I see the roles of the DM is I see the DM has 2 major roles At the table. Mhmm. The first is as referee. Mhmm. And that's because the history of The DM is the history of the referee. Back before tabletop RPGs, tabletop RPGs sort of spawned out of war gaming. Mhmm. If anybody listening is familiar with, like, Warhammer 40 k or just, like, large Scale battle thing or imagine, like, somebody in their basement with a bunch of, like, miniatures of, like, a civil war reenactment, and they're, like, Playing around with the battle of Gettysburg or they're playing with, you know, D Day and World War 2 models and stuff like that. Like, That is sort of the, like, history of tabletop games before tabletop role playing games existed. Mhmm. And in if you're playing a game, like a war game, and you have 2 players, for example, and you have 2 opposing armies in, And and you've changed their positioning for the Battle of Waterloo or whatever. Right? Like, who decides what Strategies succeed or fail can sometimes not be so easily abstracted by a rules book. Mhmm. And now in some occasions or Probably most occasions, if you're playing a war game and you do something that is, out of hat, right, like you do something that is, like, unusual as your strategy. Mhmm. Maybe there isn't anything on the books, but maybe you and the other player, your opponent, Can agree that that is a good idea or maybe you can be convinced that that is a bad move. Right? Like, oh, well, my positioning is gonna put me on top of a hill. And it's like, yeah, but if you actually know the time that this battle took place, that would put the sun in all of your Musketeers' eyes Or whatever. Right? Like like, you might be able to be, like, oh, I moved my army here, and it's, like, I think this is a good idea. And they're, like, that is actually really disadvantageous. Right? Mhmm. And then you can kind of work out how the battle continues from there because of your positioning. Well, if you don't agree, You fundamentally disagree on the advantageousness of or sorry, the advantages of a particular move. Having a 3rd person there, a referee who ultimately decides is kind of the origin of the DM. You're the person who would call for the coin flip or would you do the coin flip to decide initiative Mhmm. Which is kind of the history of initiative is who goes first was, decided by, like, a coin toss. And as you add and as you add more players, you they there've been more, like, systems Created for, initiative. Mhmm. The original, like, game of, Dungeons and Dragons didn't have an initiative It actually just assumed that you would figure it out. Well, because it also 1. Well, because, I mean, it was also, like, coming from war gaming. And so it's, like, you probably already have a way from playing chain mail or whatever that You decided initiative, and so you can just do that. Yeah. That's really interesting. I love it. And, well, also because there's, you know, sometimes there's different rules of, like, oh, in initiative, what shouldn't go first? It's like, oh, well, you know, the the the The melee characters go first, and then the artillery goes next, and then the may you know, the spell casters go next. Like, there's a lot of different ways of doing initiative. Right? Like For sure. The to this day, there's, like, a dozen different ways to do it. There really is. It's confusing. I am I am still partial to the coin flip, but that's a Separate conversation. But the, the referee is there in order to be the person who decides who succeeds at a given action that isn't dictated by the rules explicitly. Mhmm. Because if it's all dictated by the rules, Then you wouldn't need a referee there because the rules would be absolute, but you have a referee there in order to decide when the rules are not clear, What happens? I mean, that even comes to sports as well with referees too. Yeah. Yeah. No. A 100%. Yeah. It's the same thing. It's like, well, who decides what what the rules are when the rules are unclear? It's this person, and that is Sort of the the progenitor of the DM as a as a role in tabletop games is They're the person who is in charge of being the referee of the game. So your job is to be sort of an impartial rules arbiter who's fair, but also keeps the game together and moving forward. Which can sound like a lot. Yeah. But what it ultimately means is, like like, in a practical sense is If if you guys don't know the rules, don't argue about the rules. Mhmm. You have a referee. It's their job to make the Call. And sometimes referees make bad calls. I'm sure any sports fan will tell you that a a dozen examples of a referee making a call that they disagreed with. Mhmm. But there's a reason why there's someone there making the call is because it needs to move Forward, so we need a call right now. Now in an ideal world and, like, philosophically, I guess, you want, As the referee to be as impartial as you can be. Mhmm. And that can be difficult. But I think that air on the side of, like, what is fun and what keeps things moving forward. I think that Playing that role, it does require, some note taking. Mhmm. Right? Like, it's like, Oh, I I last time that we encountered this issue, I said this. Right? And some awareness of the rules is required. But I think more than the rules, your job is there to sort of enforce the social contract Where everybody feels that the game is fair and that, you know, we're all here as a respectful group of individuals that wanna play a game That is group storytelling. Absolutely. Yeah. No. I I love that. I think that's I think that's also one of the most important roles too and something that people might not realize when looking to play as the role of the game master. You know the fact that they have to be that neutral party, they have to be that arbiter, they have to be the referee. They have to make sure that they solve conflicts, they need to make those fast rulings. They need to keep things going. That can be something that you completely miss. And I think that that can be something that people are scared of as well is of making a call that is a bad call and that then they might backpedal and this can open you up 2 players that are, let's say, let let's say players that are, highly opinionated or very, or very strong, willed might be might try to leverage your insecurities to their advantage. And I think that that as the GM of your game, you do have to put the master into that title. Mhmm. And when you make a call, you have to stand by that that is your decision Yep. For now. And if we want to discuss the rules, we can figure that out after the game is over. We can talk about it later and sort of discuss What the, you know, what the rule ought to have been. But it's like, in the moment, in order to keep the game moving forward, You need to just make a call and move forward because otherwise, you can play a game that will last hours longer than intended. It'll be less Fun for everyone there. You can't be arguing with the referee more than maybe, like, a polite raise your hand and say, hey. I isn't the rule this? And if the referees at that moment is like, I'm not sure, but for right now, I think this is right Mhmm. Go with that, and then you have to go with whatever the referee says because that's their job. Their job is to keep things moving forward, And sometimes extenuating circumstances mean that you have to, you know, bend the rules or ignore them entirely because sometimes the rules don't the rules can't. Mhmm. They can't cover every possible scenario. And you're allowed to change them if it makes for a more fun experience on your end too, which I think is the best part of these games. You know, you can play there there are thousands of games out there, and you can play anyone that you want. And you can change it any way that you that you want, and it's fantastic. But I think it is in like you were saying, I think it is important to have that confidence when you're taking on that role, have that confidence and make those rulings because I very much have a strongly opinionated player. And there have been quite a few times where, I mean, I'm a decent like, I'm I'm pretty good at at taking on that referee role. I'm pretty good at, like, yeah. This is the decision that's gonna be made, and we're gonna go forward. But there's a few times where I have, like, just we were stuck on it for a little bit and we were having conversation and I've learned from that where it's like, no, we just need to keep going because it it doesn't do anything for anyone else. You know? Mhmm. Us us talking about the rules and exactly how one thing is ruled and all of that in a in a small combat that we just wanna get out of the way and so that we can continue playing the game, That's that's we just need to rule something and continue because it doesn't do anything for anyone. It doesn't do anything for even the person who's arguing about the rule unless they're just trying to do something specific. But even then, that's where you just you can even ask what are you trying to do and make a ruling as close as you can. Like, that's when you can start being more collaborative Anne asking even what they think because as the referee, you don't as the referee, at least in a lot of these games, I feel like you don't have to be the, you're the one who makes the final decision, but you don't have to come up with all of the ideas to rule something. Yeah. You can ask the other players. Well yeah. And that I think is where is really where the benefits of a tabletop game over just playing a video game do come from is that If you have an idea as a player and you're like, hey, can I, you know, can I Find something nearby that I can throw into the button? Right? Like, you need to push a button across the room and you're, Can I find something in the room that I can throw? It's like, well, maybe on your map, there isn't anything. Mhmm. But the question then for the referee is, would it be reasonable that there is something in the room? Yes. If it seems reasonable to the DM that there would be Something, a piece of debris, a rock, a, you know, a a an onion. I don't know what it is, but, like, whatever Whatever it is. Right? There's just a barrel of onions in the corner. Oh, yeah. For sure. Yeah. But whatever seems reasonable that would be there, It doesn't exist as per the rules, right, quote, unquote, the rules because, like, you have a map in front of you. The map That you drew out doesn't have anything there to throw. So you could very reasonably say no. But I think as the referee, Your job in that scenario is to say, I think it would be reasonable that there are pieces of rubble and debris on the floor. You pick up one of those and you throw it at the button, go ahead and roll to attack or whatever. Like, that is the sort of thing that can exist in a tabletop game that a Game designer for a video game would have to explicitly have placed debris and stuff there in order to solve this problem, where the problem of pushing a button that is too far away can be solved in a tabletop game in, you know, potentially limitless numbers of ways, ways that the DM didn't even plan for. I think it's always the best part when a player comes in and like, I wanna do this wild idea. And then as the GM, I'm like, alright. Yeah. How can we do this? What makes sense? Like, I came in with weirdly confident energy to 1 game, that I was a player. And I was like, my character wants to Climb the social hierarchy. Who is the leader of this city and what who what is, like, the org chart Of this city. Like, who is in charge? Who are their subordinates? Who's below them? Because what I wanna do is climb the ranks level by level. Right? Like, I'll become the bodyguard of some merchant if that merchant has access to a landowner, and then I'll become One of their employees, and I'll just try to work my way up to the king. Like, how do I do that? So good. Like and and that being said, like, that is a goal that I'm I know from, you know, later on that the DM at the time had no plans for, obviously. They didn't think that that was the direction this game was going to go. But it was the direction that I wanted to go. And I mean, to be fair, I didn't like derail the entire game forever in order to do my thing that I wanted to do, but the DM was willing to work with me on that To be like, oh, yeah. You actually know somebody who is currently working for this powerful lord, and maybe you can leverage that to, like, get into a room with them. I love that. And that's what I think is really cool is when people have those really hyper specific player goals. Like, this is what I wanna do with my character and I wanna reach this point. I think the most important part though is for the players to push those goals as much as the GM does. Like, the GM shouldn't set up every situation for you to be able to reach those goals. If you're like, hey. I want to climb the social ladder of the city, but then you do nothing to do that and you're just waiting for the GM to present those opportunities, then that's a lot of work Yeah. For the GM to do. And and on the topic of being the referee, what also would have been a 100% Fair for the DM to say to me in that scenario is you're a foreigner in a very distant land. You don't know anybody here, so you don't know. Mhmm. And could've just left it off at that, and then I would have to poke and prod at people in that I meet And have to learn that information. Now he was kind enough and also experienced enough of a DM to kind of, on the fly, have have some of that information and improvise the rest Mhmm. But it also is completely fair as the referee to look down at your notes and be like, I have nothing for this and be like, you can't do that right now. Yeah. And that's fair too. And that's where Yeah. Like, you know, it doesn't like, in those situations, if that was the ruling, like, yeah, you don't know anything right now. If that player wants to pursue that enough, they will do it. And then gonna ask again. Like, you know the GM you know then. And then so you can prep for that and you can at least have ideas for that so then you can push this story that they want to follow forward, but the player is still is still being an active pusher as well. I love it. Yeah. Yeah. I think a good example of that is, in one of my earlier campaigns, we had a wizard, and the wizard wanted a spell book. Right? Like, he wanted other spells to pick up For his class. Mhmm. And so he kept on asking. Right? Like, he kept on being, like, are there any spell books or are there any, like, Libraries or locations where people would be storing that sort of thing. And he kept on asking about it, and what was great about that is because I didn't have that information the 1st time he asked, but by the 3rd time he asked, I knew where to direct him. Yeah. Like, I know exactly what I have for you right now. Yeah. Because at that point, it was like, oh, is there anything like this? And I could be like, this time, there actually is. Mhmm. Because I know that this is clearly something that you want. You brought it up on more than one occasion. There's a lot of stuff to manage Potentially as a DM. Yeah. And so, you know, keeping those reminders and being an active part of it makes your job as the rules arbiter and also the The the creator of this world, a little bit easier. For sure. I love that a lot. It just it does help just kind of have a direction of where to go, and you can even do fun things even if it's not exactly what that person is looking for. You can have things that relate to it that might even put them in a different direction like, oh, this is actually maybe more interesting than getting the spell book. Like, there there are really fun things that you can do in that situation. But I think it might be time to go to the world. Being the world leader. So I would separate it into being the referee and being the puzzle master. And I'm going to define what I mean by puzzle master because I think that this really actually defines everything else that you do as a DM. Literally, I think it covers it all. But What I mean by that is that when you're creating a world or populating a dungeon or designing any conflict. What you're really doing is you're stepping into the role of A puzzle master, which is somebody who creates puzzles for other people to solve. Mhmm. I love it. And I think In in some sense and I and I heard this as a really good example, from from a video once, about the game hangman, actually, but they describe Hangman how it is similar to being a dungeon master. And so I'm gonna reverse that analogy and say it now like it's my idea. But essentially, what I mean by that is that as the GM of a game, you are essentially the person in a game of hangman who sides on what the word is. Yeah. And and and and you can make that word as difficult to guess or as easy to guess as you'd like, But you do have to kind of walk a line where as the person deciding the word, the decider Mhmm. You want your guesser To win. Mhmm. And if your guesser loses, you want your guesser to feel like they could have won. Mhmm. Right? So you have to set your challenge as so it is difficult, but not impossible. And it feels challenging, but the guesser will probably win. Mhmm. Right? Like, you don't wanna create a a a puzzle that is impossible for your players to solve, But you also don't want it to be so easy that it feels trivial. Yeah. It's because you want to give it some sort of meaning. Yeah. No. I like that a lot, actually. Because you want your you want your players to win. Yeah. Well and also in the same vein as a game Hangman, as the decider, you could say it is a 1 letter word and just change it in your head whenever they make a guess. Like, you can guarantee that they lose. Right? But that's not a fun or fair game. No. And so that is where I think The analogy lines up beautifully is that as the GM, if you wanted your players to lose, They will lose. Mhmm. But that's not your goal. Your goal is to create a puzzle. Essentially, monsters in a game of D and D are just a puzzle that needs To be solved. Mhmm. A any trap is a puzzle. Any scenario you've come up with. Oh, there is an ancient necromancer in a long lost Jungle in a temple somewhere, and they have, you know, caused a death plague that is going to cause everybody's souls to be eaten by Buy a, like, proto god. Like, if they're doing that so if they're doing that, right, like, That is a that is essentially a puzzle. It is a problem that you have presented for your players, and they need to solve it. And the way that they Solve it is maybe more complicated than a simple puzzle. Mhmm. But it is just a puzzle. It's like, how do we solve this thing? One of my players has actually gotten into the habit of saying anytime that they defeat something or they survive another session in my game, he's like, we have beaten your door puzzle. We have beaten your we've defeated your Umber Hulk puzzle, and and I and I I do love that Because it actually does sort of reinforce the dynamic that we have, which is that I've presented a scenario that was designed for you to solve. And if you solved it, then we all we all win. Like, as a puzzle master, you want the person to get the answer Right. Mhmm. And maybe you need to give them some hints and some help to help them solve the puzzle, but the goal isn't to stump people. Because if you can make a riddle, that is impossible. Right? Like, you want people to solve your riddle, or if they Fail at solving it when you tell them the answer. You want them to be like, oh my god. That was so doable. Right? Should have known. Yeah. No. I like I I just have to say very quick. I really like the perspective of it being a puzzle master. Like, I'm I'm going through scenarios in my head and I'm thinking of games that I've played, and I'm thinking of it more in the perspective of a puzzle. And I that is fantastic, actually. Thank you. I I I think that there is Pretty much every piece of being a GM for any game can be put into that lens as, like, what your job is. Mhmm. Right? Like because your job is, in one part, to be the referee, to be the impartial rules arbiter. And on the other side, to be the puzzle master, the person who created the world That is just a setting for your puzzles. Mhmm. Right? Like, it you created a village, and the village is in peril from, you know, there's a there's a hag nearby that is summoning wicked things, whatever. Like, that is the puzzle. Mhmm. But all of the story elements, everything else Just lives in service to the puzzle. Really? It really does. Yeah. Because any any NPCs or anything in the world that you then portray, that's just the puzzle. Like you are just filling in the elements of the puzzle and everything that makes up the bigger thing that you're trying to figure out. Well and I think that that can also as far as people who are starting off as a GM, like, fresh off, I think that can kind of guide you on what is important to prep. Mhmm. Because the things that you need to prep are the things that move You're players towards solving your puzzle. Oh, I like that. Actually, I'm curious on, what is your experience with prepping and what's your kind of, I guess, ritual when it comes to preps. Since I think that's a really good thing for beginner GMs or even GMs in general to hear different perspectives of how people structure the preps of their games. I think, generally, it okay. If the ball is already rolling and I already have a Hey, all. It is time for the midpoint of the episode, which means it is time to take a stretch, get some water, get some food, and then we will come back in a little bit to Zachariah talking about how he preps in his process, which as a GM, I find to be absolutely fascinating to listen to other game masters describe their process because it always makes me think of ways that I can improve my own, so it's an awesome time. Now if you have been listening to this episode and you have been enjoying it, please make sure to leave a review for the RPG Goblin anywhere that you listen to your podcast. Having reviews and seeing the support you guys give to the podcast really helps this thing keep going. I really want to pursue kind of making a what I like to call the TTRPG empire where I just want to be a TTRPG content creator. I want to talk about these games. I want people to play these games, and I just want it to make I just want to make it my world. And anytime that you give support to the podcast or to the YouTube channel or anything like that helps make that dream come true, which also, by the way, part of that dream is the RPG Goblin Discord server is up. It's been up for a few weeks now. And if you want an awesome place to come hang out and talk about TTRPGs, that is the place to be. All of my guests are in this Discord server along with a bunch of other really awesome folks. And if you just want TTRPG recommendations, what games you should play, things like that, we got you. If you are looking for groups to play with that are open for trying out different games. It is there. We have channels for it. If you just wanna share your cool TTRPG stories and art and stuff like that, we have places for that too. And one of my favorite things is the RPG Goblin Library, which is a channel dedicated for sharing the links of where to buy every single TTRPG that we have had on this show Castles and Crusades, Monster of the Week, Electric Bastionland, all of that along with links to the actual guests all in one place. I know when I first got into the hobby, I really struggled with finding where to buy these games. So a big thing that I wanted to do with this Discord is to make a master library of where you can just get them. You can find the games. You can find where they are available and buy them right there. It just makes life so much easier. So please make sure to join the Discord server, which the link will be in my Linktree, in the description of this episode, it is also on the link trees that are on all of my social medias, and I also post link to it occasionally on Twitter, so look out for that. And please come join the community. We'd love to have you. Now, for today's midpoint, we don't have a promo, but I will talk about the next episode that will be coming out on the RPG Goblin, which will be November 10th, and this game is gonna and, well, this episode's gonna be about a game called sagas, which is a game coming to Kickstarter in January, and it is all and it is a genre and setting neutral game, such as Fate, Fate Accelerated, Cypher, things like that. So if you enjoy those types of games where you can use the same rule set for whatever story you want, this is one of those games, and may I say, it is a really, really cool game. I bring on the creator Dennis who is an absolute joy to talk to. So even if you don't like system generic games. I can't even recommend it enough to just listen to the fun conversations that we have. And so that is gonna be coming out November 10th, and, again, it's gonna be about sagas where it is a a genre and setting neutral game, which is really exciting. One little spoiler I will give you is that we talk about a postapocalyptic Pokemon game in that episode, which is really, really cool. So yeah. Now. If you are ready to get back into the episode, which I know I am, and listen to Zachariah's and listen to Zachariah's process of prepping his games, then let's get into it. Structure the preps of their games. I think, generally okay. If the ball is already rolling and I already have a longer form thing going, it's a lot easier. But I think that as far as getting started, Like, a good place to start is to set up 1 encounter. Mhmm. Is I basically start at the end. I'm like, what is the big problem that needs to be solved? I actually did this recently on a thing that is now on DM skilled, actually. Self plug. It's called the it's Random Encounters 4, and it's called The Ballad of Anti Egerton. And, essentially, the way that that, it's like a mini module. Mhmm. But the way that it's set up is, Essentially, we start off with the biggest problem. Mhmm. And in this case, it's anti Egerton exists. Anti Egerton is this, Like, wicked green hag, that is a problem. Right? Mhmm. So I describe the villain. I say what their backstory is. Basically, you come up with a reason why this This element needs to be stopped. Right? Like, what are they doing? And then you can take anti irritant and be like, okay. I have an encounter. I have a green hag. I have, you know, some of she can summon these, like, green flame skull things. And it's, like, okay. Those are some subordinates. I built her little, like, dungeon, which is actually just, like, this grove out in the woods, and then her house is in the middle of it. And so I'm like, okay. So we have, like, a dungeon. And so I have this thing, and it's like, well, what are the things that she does? Well, she likes to, like, kidnap and eat children. Love Natalia. Yeah. So it's like, okay, well, maybe there's a nearby village, and this is how I would handle it building out a larger adventure. I'd be like, okay, in a nearby village, Some children have gone missing, and they need to know where their children have gone. So I have a problem, and I have the cause of that problem. So that is where I would start. Next, I would create a couple of other encounters on the way because on the way to get to To Yurton, what are the other things that I want you to encounter? Maybe these are just smaller problems then? Yeah. They are. They're pro they're smaller puzzles on the way to The main puzzle. I love it. And so it's like, well, on the way to auntie Eagerton, maybe you could encounter Some enchanted wolves that are under her command, that are, you know, that have been sent to, like, they're just like guard dogs in the area around her Around her, grove. So that's one thing that might be there. And then maybe we have, like, a more, Fun encounter. Maybe something that's more positive and extra puzzle y. Like, maybe in the tavern that you first hear about this, You encounter, Satyr who is in the corner of the room who wants to who can give you information about anti Eagerton in exchange for a game of some sort, like some sort of riddle game. I love that. And that's the thing as well. It's not all not all encounters have to be, like Combat. Combat or deadly or anything like that. It's just something you have to overcome. It's an obstacle. Yeah. It's an obstacle. Yeah. And also in the realm of tabletop RPGs, something like that, I would say, is also kind of optional. Right? Like, it's, Oh, you can say, like, oh, you know, the you know, people say that the the satyr is a fae and the hag is a fae, so perhaps he knows Something, and then you're guided to go learn that. Where do you get that information from is something like, oh, there's a in town who knows things about anti You're 10 who might be able to help. That sort of thing is the a piece of information that I would have in my notes, and I would just have that Separate from any character and PC in the game. It's like, it doesn't matter if my party goes to the tavern first or they go to the store. If they go to the store and they meet the store, like, stop keep named Tularoe and they talk to him, Tularoe is gonna tell them, hey. You know, I've heard about this, Like, you know, satyr that's in town. Yeah. The you know, you know that satyrs are fae, and, you know, satyrs, as a fae, he might know something about anti Eagerton. Or if they go to the tavern, the barkeep is gonna say, hey. I've heard of this nature that's in town. Right? Like, they're gonna say the same information because that information is a hint. It is a hint for your players to solve your next puzzle. It's it's important information, and so it's gonna it's gonna lead them in that direction, but that doesn't mean they have to automatically follow in that direction. That's just put the direction that's gonna advance the plot. It's almost like any video game when you can decide this versus following the actual pull up. Well and but here's but here's how I would say is, like, okay. The the overall problem is anti Egerton. Right? And they're like, I don't really wanna deal with a satyr. Okay. I'm gonna leave. They all just leave the town, and it's like, okay. Well, what direction are you going in? How do you decide where to look? How would you know where to find anti Eagerton's place? And maybe they're like, hey. Like, maybe they don't wanna ask around town. That would be a place where your players might come up with some fun and innovative way to find it. I think a good example of that might be, You know, hey. Can we talk to the parents of 1 of the children? Maybe they have something of theirs. May have, like, a lock of hair That is their their kid's hair, and we can use that to cast a scrying spell. And then we can scry on the location of their child, And we can kind of use that to figure out, like, where is their kid now? Where were they taken? That sort of thing. Maybe they have other spells or other ideas of how Maybe you have a ranger in your party, and the ranger's like, well, if they came by this part of the village and they went towards the woods, they have to have left or something behind. Maybe I can follow that. It's like, oh, well, here's some footprints that are flanked by 2 wolves. That's suspicious. Maybe I should follow those. Like, you can your players will come up with a ton of potential solutions That may not have anything to do with the satyr that you set up as a hint to point them in the right direction. The hint's just there if they need it. Yeah. And it's like, oh, they get stumped. They get lost in the woods. You roll on your woods table, and it says, ah, they are lost in the woods for 4 additional hours, and they find themselves back at the entrance of the woods. Mhmm. And it's like, oh, well, this isn't going anywhere. Maybe we should go talk to the Seder. Or maybe maybe they don't get lost, and maybe they just find the hut, and they just Skip the sator altogether. That's fine too. But what I would say is when I'm preparing a session is that that is kind of how I do it is I present a series of problems For which I don't know the solution. Yeah. Because you might know the solution until you play. That's the good reason you're play. Exactly. Like like, I have obviously, off the top of my head, I have a few potential solutions in mind, and I have a hint to point them in the right direction. But I can't guarantee that they'll bite onto my hint, and I also can't guarantee that, you know, they won't find a better solution to the puzzle than I've come up with. Yeah. And something that's also more fun for them too. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. That maybe has more to do with their character or maybe, I mean, this is honestly why, like, while I have an awareness of what my players' abilities are, I don't go, like, super hard on, like, knowing what everyone's abilities and spells and stuff that they've picked is because Mhmm. I do like being surprised by potential solutions that I didn't think about. It's like, oh, you can do that? Like, you have that power as a wizard, or it's like, oh, your cleric used their backstory as an acolyte in order seek refuge in a church because they're like, oh, well, I have I have the ability to know somebody in in, you know, whatever form of clergy, and they'll let me stay there. It's part of my, like, background element, and it's like, well, that is something that I may not have thought of, but maybe that is the perfect refuge from a vampire or whatever. Right? Like, Yeah. These are things that's why we're doing this. That's why we're doing a collaborative game. But but I think that, Yeah. Essentially, as the puzzle master creating the world, populating it with challenges, That is fundamentally the way that I frame my prep work because I don't need to over prepare A bunch of NPCs and figure out what information they know. Yeah. Because that's just a lot of work. And you know it doesn't help. It's not helpful either because I can have a 100 NPCs in a village that all know no information relevant To the current anti UHturn plot line. Yeah. You just have a few important ones. And especially in a situation where the players can just sidestep all of that and and go on their own route to to try and figure out the puzzle. That's then that I think kinda creates the that creates the idea that, oh, man. The DM did all this prep work and then, like, my players just ignored it. Like, it kind of creates a little bit of tension even there. Like, if you over prep so much to the point that it's that it's too much and when you feel like any point that a player doesn't pursue any of the stuff that you prepped and you feel kind of trade by that. You might need to relook at how you are prepping your games because that's Yeah. That's not how these games are played because there's so many different ways that people can approach these problems. Yeah. There's only there's also only so much time in a given session, and I am, like, a Super time conscious DM, because, like, again, as part of the, like, social contract, I feel like it is my role to, like, keep the game moving and make sure that, you know, we are all for for my games, we're all a group of adults that this is our Saturday. Mhmm. Right? Like, we have chosen to take our free time to get together to play this game. We couldn't be doing anything else. Mhmm. So this should be a fun experience that continues to, that that is engaging throughout. And so I think that being conscious of Time is also important when you're planning. And that's why I would say you only need to prepare. If you prepare 3 encounters for a 1 shot, you will get through 1 to 2 of those. Mhmm. Like, like, If I was running the anti Eagerton scenario as a one shot, there wouldn't be any wolves in the forest. Mhmm. And there probably would be a lot fewer things in her grove. Right? Because her grove is a couple is at least A session's worth of stuff before you get to her house. Yeah. Basically, you streamline it. Yeah. At that point, you just Streamline it straight to, like, okay. And you go into the woods, and you just see this large, like, grove like fence, and you enter it. And inside, there's a hut. Mhmm. There's the hut, and then you go and you deal with auntie Eagerton in her hut. Also, that's another thing is, like, in the notes for the module, it's like, oh, auntie Eagerton might be out. Like, she may not be home Mhmm. At the time. Right? So it's like, well, if she isn't home, then that means that the players get to, like, poke around her hut and, you know, examine her things and maybe come up with a battle plan, maybe ambush her, all of this stuff where it's like, if you don't have that time, you put her in the hut. Take advantage of walk in and she's there. And and Especially if combat takes time too. You want to make sure to get to that. Well yeah. And that and that's and that's part of the consciousness of time and how much time you have to fill. But, like, as far as, you know, like, How many, encounters you need to plan or how many NPCs you need to generate. Like, I have a list of names in front of me that are first and last names that like my players can talk to anybody in the village, any random person. And I have, and I have a first name and a last name for them. And the information that they have will be guiding them towards the relevant next plot point. Yep. Because the NPCs don't exist to be fleshed out characters. They exist as part of a puzzle. Get become more they can become more fleshed out characters, but they they don't start off that way. That's not the point. Yes. Absolutely. I completely I completely agree with that. And that's actually something when I read the monster of the week rule book, that kinda made me realize that's the role of NPCs. Mhmm. Because the whole thing is that you give them basically a role. Like, this person's a victim, and they get them like, they get into trouble. This person is an off is an official, and they are here to question what you're doing. Like, it's basically, here's the roles that this n p c provides, this location provides, this monster provides, and it simplifies that entire part of the game for you. So it's like, okay. I know I need someone to I need someone who experienced something to basically give information. Probably a victim who who got into Mhmm. Who maybe got attacked by this werewolf. And then that victim will have information on the werewolf and will help push the story forward of giving more information to the werewolf and possibly where it may go next. And so no. I love that, and I love that you said that because I think that's a difficult thing for, starting GMs to realize because at least for me, I've been GMing for maybe about over a year and a half now, getting close to 2 years, so I'm still very much new. There are so many things I'm still learning. And especially when I started, I did not really understand how to use NPCs. I didn't know they were just supposed to provide a role in the story. And so when I made NPCs, I kind of overcomplicated it for myself. Yeah. And then when an NPC showed up, I got I freaked out even though I did the right thing, which was just name them and provide information for them. Well, I think, that's also a good point to bring up as far as, like, somebody who's who's newer to GM and getting started is because I think that this is a pitfall a lot of people fall into as far as prep Is simple is better, and that Yep. The simplest plot line, the most cliched plot line is going to serve you better as a puzzle master than making something that is complicated, convoluted, or full of, like, You know, a, like, house of cards level of politics. Like like, I think that that is something I've seen it on a couple of occasions Personally, and I've heard about so many more where the DM has this very intricate storyline that they're disappointed that the Players either don't engage with the way that they intended them to Mhmm. Or they never get to all of the information. And then the the GM feels the need to, like, Info dump on the players because they're very excited about this thing that they created, and the players are never going to encounter in a D and D session. You know, which is frustrating. It is it is frustrating, but I think that it's also it's like a self inflicted wound because, like, the problem is that you're Doing too much work. You're doing the work of a novelist, and you aren't a novelist. You're a puzzle master. You're not writing a book. Yeah. You're not writing a book. You're creating a game of hangman. And I think that you need to, like, temper your expectations for how much you can cram into an individual puzzle. Right. Like, you can do long form storytelling in D and D. Obviously, there's a 1,000,000,000 podcasts out there doing very great stories in D and D, but that Story is as the medium of D and D, that story can't be overly complicated at the outset. Even if it gets complicated down the road, it gets as complicated as a as as a 3 story arc in Star Trek. Like, Star Trek is super, like, Talk in tech, and it definitely has, like, some convoluted parts to it. But if you actually take any individual episode, they're fairly simple if you summarize Because because it has to be. Because it it only has, like, 30 minutes, and, you know, 20 minutes of screen time is, like, 4 hours of D and D. Like, you don't get a lot of story in in a 4 hour period of a tabletop game. That isn't to say that there Isn't any story. It's just you the way you allot time to story is different because, you know, in a TV show, they don't have to stop and roll dice In order to make a decision, the decision's just made by the narrator. Yep. Right? Like like, I so I think that simple is better In the form of puzzle making is is, like, one of the most important things to, like, learn as somebody who's new to GMing. You know? Because if you make a puzzle that seems obvious to you, I guarantee you that there is a breakdown between when you explain it And the players hear it at understanding the puzzle. Right? Because you can say, oh, there are 3 pillars, And on each pillar, it has 3 faces. The faces are of a whale, a snake, and a bird. And, You know, you the up on the wall, there's a giant bird symbol. Mhmm. And they'll be like, I wonder if we have to, like, Touch each bird, and they'll try touching each bird. And it's like, well, maybe we have to cast a spell at all the birds. Yep. And they're like, maybe what we need to do is actually cast a Spell on all of the not bird symbols, and they'll go around doing that. And you're, like, sitting there, like I mean, if you just rotated each of them to, like, all face The bird direction, it would just work. Why are they not doing this? And it's like, well, that seems more complicated for themselves. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. And that's why it's like a puzzle like that is like A literal puzzle. Mhmm. As simple as you can possibly make it, a puzzle for 3rd graders, like, is as complicated as you can go Because there is a breakdown in what you imagine versus what other people imagine when they hear information, that's informed by a host of, like, life experience and context, and the puzzle always seems obvious to the person making it. Mhmm. So You already know the solution. Plus plus from a player's perspective, you're always gonna assume that the GM has something more. Like, like, has has created this entire situation that's gonna be, like, really complicated and all of that. And so when you go into it and you hear the information, it's like, okay. What's the wildest way this can be that we can Well, because I I once had a session I once had a session, and and I'll never do this. I'll never let something go on this long again, but there was more than an hour that was spent on a single puzzle. Oh, no. And and and, and, well, and that was particularly because one very Stubborn player was like, no. We are not moving on until I figure this out. Oh, yeah. Despite the fact that everybody else was like, we're done. We're ready to move on. Mhmm. And I was like, You know, at the time, I was trying to do more of a sandbox game. I was like, you guys can spend however much time here as you want or, you know, move on. But I fully didn't intend them to because this was a thing that was on the map, but it wasn't serving a real purpose mhmm. In the narrative, it wasn't serving a purpose in the current larger scale puzzle. It was more of an aside. And now with Experience, I know I should have just cut this out entirely. Yeah. Right? Like, it's a waste of time. It wouldn't have improved anyone's game because there was I don't think that they had a way at the time to get through it because, essentially, the puzzle boiled down to a door that said that no living thing can pass Through this door. Oh, interesting. It was a little bit more, like, finicky. There was a rhyme involved, but it was like, but essentially, like, the misunderstanding was, like, would they do it? Like, the assumption was, oh, this is here, so I have to be able to solve it With what I currently have because and it's like, well, no, you couldn't because it like, if you had an undead creature with you, it could walk through. Anything that wasn't alive could walk through. Ghosts could walk through. You can't walk through because you're not dead. Mhmm. But that is the sort of scenario where, like, this puzzle was unnecessary. It didn't serve anything. Like, it wasn't serving the larger problems at hand. And fun thing to add. It was just a at the time, I thought, oh, this is just a fun, like, Side puzzle, and if they get through the door by some means, then they get something something special. They get some sort of reward or magical whatever. Right? Mhmm. But they couldn't do that, and that's because the puzzle itself was I didn't have, like, a Single solution in mind for it, and there wasn't a way to solve it. And I also should've, at that point, just broken out of, Quote, unquote, like, character and just been like, I don't think that there's a way for you to solve this. It's not really relevant. We can move on. Yeah. Right? I've actually I've had something similar, not to that extent, but I introduced basically, they were breaking into this house and trying to retrieve a book. And when they got into this room where the book was, the room started to fill with water, not at, like, a extreme, like, it wasn't doing it really fast, but it was starting to fill. So it was like a problem that was approaching. But everyone, especially the 1 strongly opinionated player I have, took it as this is an immediate threat. We have to deal with this now. And so they kept trying to figure things out and I was getting stressed. I'm like, hold on. Hold on. Let's step away for a moment. This is not that much of an issue. I I should've worded it better. Mhmm. I I apologize. But, yeah, this is not something that we need to spend that much time on. We can move on. Well, and I think that that is sort of like the that is like a blending. Right? Like, it's a merging of the referee versus the puzzle master role that you have there because, like, as as the referee, you want the game to keep on moving. And also as the puzzle master, if you realize that the Puzzle isn't really possible or maybe you mid like like, you misspoke. You stated the puzzle incorrectly. It is your job to clarify yep. In order for the game to continue forward fairly. And I think in my case, in my example of the door that no living thing could pass through is I should have won. Like, I should have just clarified that, oh, yes. That is in fact what the riddle is saying. Like, the riddle is saying that you cannot pass through if you're alive. Yep. In that way, there would be no ambiguity because the ambiguity in the way that it was phrased meant that they were trying to think of other out of the box solutions Yep. For something that had, like, a finite number of solutions. I mean, I guess they could have just tried, like, breaking down the door. Like, that also was an option. But, Anyway, hindsight is one point. The puzzle, and then you you beat it anyway. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's like, oh, we just, unload our biggest Spells possible into the door. It's like it's a stone door. It's probably pretty tough, but, I mean, stone can be broken. So exactly, anything can be anything can be figured out with enough brute force. Yeah. And with enough time for sure. Right? Especially with since there was no time pressure, it's like, oh, All that you need to do is come back with a hammer and chisel, and this problem will, solve itself. Did that player ever end up figure like, getting a way to solve it? Nope. No. They didn't. Ultimately, that ended up being, like, okay. Let's, like, wrap up the session, and then, oh, I know what happened. And then COVID hit. Oh. The game went on pause for, like, six months or so until we got set up with an online game, and then we decided to play a different game altogether. So I think that that puzzle actually killed that game. That's so funny. Oh, no. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. That was, that was that was a missed judgment on my part, but I did learn a lesson from it. And it was, it was that, like, when you're creating these puzzles, like, you also kinda need to know at what point, like, You give up on the puzzle. Mhmm. Right? Like like, when when is the puzzle misstated or when is it super unclear? When is a good time for you to just peel back the curtain and be like, hey, like, I didn't really phrase this very well. This, Like limerick that I gave you guys to help solve this. Clearly, it wasn't clear enough about what it is, but there's you know, No living thing can pass through this door. Like, that's what it means. And we can move on, or you can find a way to, like, blow open the door or come back another day with a hammer Mhmm. Or, you know, something like that. Exactly. And And that and that would have been a better use of our time. It would have been a better memory than anything Then then figuring it out, quote, unquote, and and, you know, finding a way to, like, oh, kill my character, but then revivify them maybe on the other side of the door or something. I don't know what they could've I don't know what they could've done. I mean, I think that's a good point though even in in the larger scale of the puzzle. Like, the whole campaign itself, if you're running something long form, that is a puzzle. Like, that's just a a long running puzzle. And having that self awareness of knowing when something has gone wrong and that, wait. This isn't actually going to be fun for anyone. This is gonna be a pain. Things got messed up is really important because and and also knowing that all of those are lessons. Like, it's not Yeah. Like, even if it may seem like failure. Every single one of those is a lesson because I actually recently had to kill my 1st campaign. Mhmm. And it was painful. And that was mostly due to mistakes that I made early on and mistakes that I just never fixed because I thought it would be okay. It led me to doing things that I didn't like to do until finally, I I told everyone. I'm like, hey. We need to talk because the way the story's gonna the way the story's going, I introduced way too many things. I made it way too complicated. Like you were saying earlier, it's easy to overcomplicate something that you really don't need it to be that much bigger than, oh, here's this simple plotline. Something's trying to take over the world. That's simple. And I overcomplicated the entire thing. And then during play, I still brought in more elements, and things just kinda started to become a mess because there was so much stuff that it couldn't feasibly fit within this game, and all the elements couldn't fit together. Just go themselves as one cohesive thing. Exactly. It would've had to be kind of piecing it together slowly and I'm like, I don't think this is gonna be fun. It's not fun for me right now. It's not gonna be fun for you guys, and I know that you're already having struggles. And I have absolutely I have made the mistake of trying to carry on a game past the point that it should've been over. Like, basically, my party TPK'd paid by failing encounter. And I, instead of ending the game, I was like, oh, well, your characters come too in like the afterlife plane, and we tried Continue. And I really hated the vibe of it. Mhmm. And it wasn't for me. And ultimately, I ended up having to kill the game down the road because I was so unhappy with it, where I should have just Let it die naturally Mhmm. Where it was like, oh, yeah. No. The dragon actually just did sink your ship and that kind of is the end of the story. We need to Start a new one and we can, like, reboot it, start over with the same characters if we want to, which is always an option as well. You know, it's like if you're party TPKs, you can play the same character if You want to. They they they are dead in this universe, but there are a a 1000000000 universes for them to be alive in. So If you fail with a character on one attempt, just play them again another time, and maybe you'll have a better a better go at them this next time around. Like, I know some folks that have played the same character more than once. And I honestly, I kind of love it because it's, it's neat to see the same character in different scenarios and different, You know, places. And with different cast too. Like, different cast of other characters. Oh, yeah. Exactly. Like, sometimes sometimes characters don't fit in with the party that you built around them, and maybe you need They just needed a different group. Yep. Right? Like they just needed a different, group of companions. So what you were saying about like a Simple is better, like, long form campaign. Actually, during, COVID nineteen, when we were all in lockdown and we were doing this online game, I did what I think is kind of the best game I've ever run as far as, like, a long term campaign because it went on for, like, 10 months. Oh, nice. And and, actually most of my campaigns are about, like, baby length. Like, it's usually about 9 months or so for a campaign. I mean okay. To be honest, I I understand the appeal of, like, campaigns that run for years. I I do. Mhmm. But I think that campaigns that last less than a year are superior in the way of I feel like it can get dragged out too long if you make it like, oh, here's, like, 3 years we're playing a campaign. Unless you are keeping things interesting and people are able to switch things up. I feel like it just goes for so long. I think you also might have to consider, like, the duration, like sorry. The frequency at which you play also factors in because because I play regularly, like, every week. And so I think if you're playing a game weekly, you can get through a lot of ground. You can cover a lot of ground in 9 months. Right? Where I think if you're Playing a game biweekly that you don't cover as much ground, so maybe I mean, that same game would take 18 months. Right? Mhmm. And and the difference is just we play weekly versus, You know, monthly. Like, if you're playing a game monthly, I totally understand it going on for years because, like, how much can you feasibly cover if you're only playing once a month? None none of these are better than others. I'm not saying playing more frequently is better. I I like it because I like things I like playing. I like playing games. Personal preference. And I'm not saying that long running campaigns are a bad thing by any means. I do know that play like, how much do you play does depend on it. But I know in the game that I actually killed, we played for over about a year and a half, and we played for 40 sessions. And we, again, this is this is mistakes in which I'm learning things from. So it was great experience for that. But Yeah. Of course. We played for about year and a half, 40 sessions, and we barely got anything plot related done. And it kills me to think about it, but I'm like, versus we're now doing the sponsored weekend. We've had 11 sessions so far, and we've completed 2 arcs fully and we're just introducing the next one. I'm like, wow. Things could actually go at a pace that makes it happen. Yeah. Things can happen. Well, also, I think I think along that, what I was gonna say is that, like, as far as simple is better as, like, cost to interrupting. Oh, no. No. No. No. Not at all. Like like, but as far as, like, simple is better on a long form campaign applies as well Because the best structured campaign that I've ever run was the, was this online game. And the plot the premise of the game was you all wash up a shore after your ship has crashed. Mhmm. You are in a, in a foreign land that you weren't traveling to. This isn't your intended destination, but you've washed up in this in this land. And the entire plot center around the fact that on a mountain in the distance, there is a giant dragon named Bogvad. And Bogvad is this dragon that is so massive. It's basically the entire mountain top above the clouds is Bogvad. And he is so powerful that the world below him with all of these, like, little giant people, like, that's Contradictory, but they were essentially, like, like, Goliath type of giant people. Mhmm. Right? Like, they've built their society under the threat of Bogvad to just, like, Their their entire industry is about feeding Bogvad. Like, they feed Bogvad, and Bogvad eats a 1000 people per day. Oh, wow. And that is, like, the villain of this story is Bogvad. The player characters the player characters are given a magical item While they're on the beach, they meet a a gnoll that, like, gives them a magical rock and says, my god says if you take this rock up to the top of the mountain, This stone will shoot a beam that will kill Bogvad, and you'll save the world. All you have to do is bring this to him. And that is the entire game. The entire game was everything everything that took place between them landing on the beach, Being given the stone and getting to the mountain was all just a series of smaller puzzles in order to move them forward. Along the way, they met different Characters, they attended festivals. They, you know, they had a a period of time where they got captured by evil wizards. They learned a lot about the world on the travel, but the Higher way, there was just this through line of, like, you have to get to the mountain. You have to get to the mountain. So they knew no matter what they were doing, if they were being, You know, captured by one of Bogvad's, like, smaller dragon lackeys. Right? Like, it's trying to thwart them in their journey to go kill Bogvad. Like, All of that is in service to the fact of 1 very simple premise, which is get the rock to the mountain. You have to get to the top of the mountain. And, Ultimately, that was the entire game, and they got to the top of the mountain and the the stone, didn't actually kill Bogvad, but it made such a big noise that it summoned giants from Across the sky, and those giants kill Bogvad. That's so fun. Oh my gosh. And and that is kind of the wrap up of the game then. Right? Like, there's, like, a sort of, like, relaxing of, like, the tensions afterwards because Book Vad is dead. The the Storm King has returned all of this stuff. Mhmm. But but the premise was the simplest premise I've ever used, and it worked as well as any premise I've ever had before. I'm obsessed with that. Well, because at the end of the day, like, whatever shenanigans they were getting involved in, there was something that would come up that would be like, Oh, also, it it framed every sub puzzle as well. Right? Because Bogvad is such a huge intimidating force in this world It has impacted everything. So if they talk to these, like, goliaths at their village, the goliaths at 1 village are like, oh, yeah, we're like, You know, at war with, like, our cousins because they are part of this complex that feeds Bogvad thousands of people every day. Mhmm. And they're like and then you go to that city, and they're like, we don't have a choice but to feed Bogvad every day. Otherwise, he'll destroy us. And you go to the next location, it's like, oh, there's this Orcs subplot with this village of orcs. Well, the orcs are tired of being, like, you basically used as the feed For Bogvad. Like, they're the ones that are being sent away, and so you have this whole orc subplot. And but it It all relates to Bogvad. The wizards in the sky, they're like these sky castles with wizards in this world that, ended up, like, Capturing the party at some point, but every single wizard at like, every single archmage, their goal is to transform into a dragon Because they want to be like Bogvad. It's just it's it's nailing in the point that Mhmm. This this is bad. Like, it's at at every turn, it is showing, like, this is an actual force of, like, this is an actual bad force that we're dealing with, and here is how it's affecting the world around it. Yeah. Yeah. People and you and all oh, I like that so much. And I think and I think because of that, it's like they couldn't escape it. Right? Like, there was no, like, getting so distracted by shenanigans that they were like, oh, Bogvad, forgot about him. Like, they can't because the orcs, it's about Bogvad. The Mhmm. The Goliaths, it's because of Bogvad. The the Freaking wizards. They're doing it because of Bogvad. And so having that, everything funnels towards the final puzzle, which is, you know, Getting to the top of the mountain and all of the challenges that, you know, lie in the journey. That's so good. I I think that is genius. And and you could kind of structure a game like Curse of Strahd in a similar fashion. Like, Strahd is such an impactful force on the world of Barovia on the land of Barovia. Like, you can't escape him. He is everywhere. He is the land. He will bother your party. He will toy with And you can create this villain where it's like, oh, well, you're talking to these villagers, and it's like, oh, well, you know, somebody recently passed away, and it's like, well, why did they pass away? It's because of Strahd. Like, it has something to do with him, and it's no different with, a Joel, either. Right? It's like, nobody can ignore this problem because people are dying, and their souls are being eaten. Yeah. And if you wait long enough, more people will continue to suffer from this plague that is only getting worse. And so even if you get into, like, a side story shenanigan chasing around, like, a magical chicken or whatever, like, you you can't be distracted for too long Mhmm. Because, like, oh, anytime an animal is killed For, like, hunting, for, like, food or whatever, that animal soul gets consumed by the the by this, like, evil curse monster thing. So, like, you literally can't escape it for a moment. And as the GM, you can just, like even what even how you, like, scribe those types of things and narrate those types of things too. You can push that idea even further. Like, yeah, you got distracted to kill this chicken, but then what happens when you kill that chicken that makes you remember why you're killed? Yeah. You see, like, a wisp of its soul, like, rising out of it and then vanish into like this, this eerie green vapor. And it's like, well, what was that? It's like, yeah, that, that, That actually happens whenever anything dies right now. That's super weird. Right? Like, that's what your companions this is like, oh, that's super weird. That happens whenever anybody dies, and then the players remember, oh, I know what that means. That means that the chicken just got its soul consumed, which is a horrible fate, and maybe we need to do something about it. Maybe your druid Starts to lose their mind a bit because of the implications of that. Mhmm. Right? It's like circle of life is being disrupted because nothing gets to go to the afterlife. Like, you could do so much with that, but I think that that's kind of the big thing about creating, like, an an overarching villain, is that, you know, simple is better. You wanna keep it simple, and then everything in your sub puzzles are related to that big Puzzle. Right? Like, the big problem generates all of these smaller problems, and that'll keep you on track for, like, It'll keep you on track as far as, like, what your smaller things should be and if you might want to, you know, put a put a pin in certain ideas because Mhmm. Those ideas are completely unrelated. Maybe they aren't going to lead your players towards the the main, attraction. So you you'll wanna bench those ideas. It's like if I had, like, in my my current game, like, yeah, my players just encountered, like, A bunch of, like, drow in this drow city and whatnot. But I was very quick to try and get them out of it because that wasn't really the main Storyline. Mhmm. It was like, we need to get you guys out of this city as quickly as possible and make sure that it is inhospitable for you to return Because the main plot is still happening elsewhere, you still have to deal with the frost maiden and this eternal winter up on the surface. People are going to continue suffering. And it's so easy to get distracted, especially if you make something that is particularly cool or feeds into the aesthetics of 1 of your Players, like, they're going to want to go and do this thing, but it's, like, well, everything there has to point back towards the plot in motion. Yes. Like, one of the one of the villains that, my party recently dealt with, like, was the well, they recently killed the guy, but He's still a problem Mhmm. Because, essentially, the actions of this villain were allowed to go to such a point that it Caused other problems, and those issues are still existing in the world. So even though the character of of, this, ogre called Kjataway Croggs, even though he's dead, the problems generated the other sub puzzles Still continue. In fact, bigger problems than him being dead are still around. Essentially, like, his death, like, triggers, a whole, like, element of grief where, like, some Fae turns into, like, a a frost maiden Because, like, because this character, like, killed this fae's sister. And so because Jacektaue Krogs killed this Fey's sister, the grieving Fey has turned into this frost maiden that has plagued the land with winter. I love that. And and that means that, you know, the the problem at hand of, like, oh, the problem was this 1 evil dude, like this 1 evil ogre. Even though that problem's solved, there's still bigger problems to solve. How do they get Yeah. To the frost maiden? How do they talk to her or vanquish her or do something? Because While completely justified, the person that she's trying to take vengeance on is dead. Mhmm. Like, how do we get close enough in order To convince her to stop or to just, you know, vanquish the evil from the land because maybe she's too far gone. She has fallen too deep into this Whole of being evil and we can't convince her otherwise. Like, whatever solution my players come up with, is the solution to the puzzle. But but that is that is the direction that they're going in, and everything is gonna point them towards it Because they have to go towards that thing. Absolutely. I think that again, this is great, especially coming from having to kill that campaign literally like a week ago and all of, and just like that being very fresh in my mind and still learning as a GM, this is all really, really helpful to hear. And like, even if it may be obvious when you hear it or when you say it, it kind of unlocks that part of your brain like, oh, wait. No. You're right. That that is the role that I have. That is what I have to do in these stories to get the outcome that I want, which is to have a fun time with your friends telling a story where you complete a goal. Like, that's really kind of the that's the whole thing around TTRPGs. You're having a fun time with your friends, playing this game, creating a story to complete a goal. Yeah. Yeah. A 100%. And I think that, yeah, that that to, like, get back to the original, like, topic of this, which I don't feel like we've strayed Too far off of this time, technically. Yeah. We haven't strayed very far, which is I I think that, in summary, sort of, Is that the roles of the DM are as the impartial referee to, you know, adjudicate the rules and keep things moving forward, Be fair and and a referee. Right? Mhmm. As well as being the puzzle master, which involves creating the world And populating that world with challenges, and that involves everything, everything that you're doing. The puzzle mastery will want to create some simple Simple challenges, conceptually simple. Mhmm. And then every other puzzle that they make is in service to another puzzle. Right? Like Yeah. Like and I think that as long as you keep those things in mind, it'll simplify your prep because anything that you're preparing should be related to the puzzle, And it'll simplify you running the game because your job as the referee is to maintain the social contract and keep the game moving. Right? Like, in the best interests of your players who are everybody else, presumably your friends at the table. Absolutely. I love that so much. And just you and the thing is what's great is that's the role of the GM, but that doesn't dictate the way that you play the game. That doesn't dictate how like your play style or even your group's play style, these are just tools to help enhance all of that. And I think that is what's truly fantastic about what we've been talking about is, yeah, this doesn't tell you any way to play your game. Yeah. Just use like, using these tools just helps you complete your goal. Yeah. It just it's just there to help, like, frame what your job responsibilities are. Right? Rather than, Like, there's so many different styles and and and ways to play any of these games. One game to another will change the way that you, Like, emphasize what your game looks like, what prep you're doing, what your puzzles look like Yep. Will change from game to game and, from From GM to GM. But I I I truly believe that this is, like, a very good condensed version of, These are your job responsibilities. Anything that's outside of that or adjacent to it can vary. Yeah. Yeah. And and and this is a sort of thing that you would carry from 1 game to another. If you're trying out a new game, you're still the referee. You're still the puzzle master. Oh, we're all trying out a game for the 1st time? Well, my job is to be the referee. None of us know the rules, so, ultimately, it falls to me to, like, Make the call and Yeah. You know, move the game forward. Help guide people through it. Like, it's No. It's just those basic things that I think you even if you don't really know the role of the GM and and what you need for it that you do end up falling into these same roles, which is what's great too is that even if no one knows at the start, eventually you'll get there. Yeah. Yeah. Everyone does and you'll find a way that works for you. Yeah. And I and I think that that there's there's certainly a wealth of information that is passed down sort of as tribal knowledge, and I think that there's, You know, that, like there isn't, like, a a solid, like, codified single place to go for all of this advice, but that's sort of why, like, I try to I try to keep that in mind as I, like, introduce new people to the game is, like, what are all of the things that I've learned over my years of listening to other people talk about these games in this in this, you know, this space, and what are the things that I found useful, and what are the things that I thought were kind of Counterproductive or harmful to my game or the games of other people that I know Absolutely. To sort of reinforce a positive, Positive gaming experience, in in in this space that we know and love. And, I I think one last note on, like, the puzzle master thing. When starting in a new game is whatever new game you're playing, you can figure out what that puzzle is in very simple terms. For example, in the Warhammer 40 k, wrath and glory game, A very easy, like, puzzle, quote, unquote, in the intro, like, box set Is you're a bunch of space marines on a ship, and you find out that the ship is occupied by orcs. Your objective then becomes escaping the ship and blowing it up. Mhmm. Like, all that you have to do, the entire puzzle is escape the ship. And so as the person running the game, you can go, okay. Well, what challenges are between my players in exiting the ship? Well, they're already at the bridge of the ship or whatever before they realize that it's orc infested. And so they're going to encounter pick, like, 3 things That they will encounter on the way out of the ship. It's like, well, on the way out of the ship, they have 1 encounter with actually just a bunch of orcs in a room. They have another encounter where they come into a hallway and it's completely collapsed, or maybe there's like some, you know, Fusion core, something that's gonna explode, or the door locks lock on them, whatever thing is going to impede them, you come up with maybe 2 or 3 things on the way out of the ship. But once they get out of the ship, you know, their their spaceship pulls away. It shoots its guns. It blows up the ship. The game is over. You've won. Mhmm. Right? Like, that's your one shot. It's essentially figuring out what is the puzzle of this game Yeah. And how do I facilitate That happening. What what what are the obstacles to get there? I like that. Yeah. Yeah. And then the referee part is where you actually gloss, you know, gloss over the rules, get an idea of how the gameplay loop works. But but that is those 2 roles. It's like, there's the functional. Like, this is how the game works Mechanically, and here's how I judge success or failure. And then here are the challenges, and here's how we get you to succeed or fail at those challenges. Here's how we here's the puzzle. How do you solve it? Yeah. The the fun part. Yeah. Yeah. Mechanics are also fun, but, but I think, though, there's kind of one thing I want to ask, but I think we're getting to the end here. Mhmm. Because we've covered a lot, and this has been fantastic. Again, thank you for, like, suggesting this as an idea, and thank you for coming on to do it because this has opened my eyes on how I want to structure things, and I'm very excited to to design my next one shot Yeah. Yeah. Putting it more in perspective of puzzles. But I'm excited to hear about it. It it does it does help for bullet Points as well. It's like, what are my things? I have 3 bullet points of 3 puzzles for this evening, and now I expand. For sure. I love that. And so I I'm just obsessed. And I've kind of done something similar, with my prep of doing almost like a beginning, middle, end thing, and that's kind of where each of the obstacles will come in like, oh, here's an obstacle at the beginning, middle, end. And that ends up working, but I'd like to, again, try this out because learning things from other GMs is a great way to learn everything. And so but the last thing that I'd like to ask, other than the whole villain point, what is something a GM is not? Like, what is another role that the GM is not? What is a toxic or bad practice as a GM that you have come across and people might think is a good thing, but ultimately is not. Other than the villain, which we talked about earlier Mhmm. I don't think that the GM is the game's babysitter. I think that that's gonna be, like yeah. I think if there was something that I would your job as the GM isn't to do everything. It isn't to keep the game together. It isn't to keep your friends from having arguments with one another. Like, This is sort of like stepping outside of the bounds of actually, I guess it kinda answers your question then. Right? Because it's like, this is beyond the bounds of being the DM. Mhmm. Your job as the GM of your game is not to be your player's parent. Mhmm. And I think that there are a lot of a lot of Folks that when they step into the role of the GM because it is sort of a I mean, it is an authoritative role. Yep. Right? Like, you are the 1 person who stands out at the table. You have a screen probably. You have, like, this level of you introduce the game, the scenario, all of the Stuff. So it puts you in a position of, quote, unquote, authority. Yep. And I think that that defaults a lot of people to thinking that Everything is your problem. Mhmm. And if 2 of your players aren't getting along, that isn't your fault. That isn't your problem as the GM. That's not your job. Your job isn't to resolve out of game conflicts between players. If there's an issue in the game that you can, like, adjudicate and resolve and referee within the game. That's one thing. Mhmm. But it's actually one of the things I, introduce people to when I'm starting a game as Part of a session 0 is I'm like, I am not your parent. If you have an issue with another player, you 2 need to, as respectful adults, Just talk to each other Mhmm. Like, and sort that out. Like, because the only thing that I can really do As the GM in an interpersonal conflict is be like, you're out of the game. Right? Like, to 1 person or the other, That is the only that is the only actual quote, unquote power I have in this scenario is to kick somebody out of the game. Yep. So don't involve me. Right? Like, because I don't have any I am not your I'm not Not only am I not your parent, but I'm also not your boss. I'm not, like, in charge of making you get along. This is my Saturday too. Yeah. Right? Like, I chose to be here. I wanna have a good time. I wanna have fun. I shouldn't be spending my time mediating other people's interpersonal conflicts. If those interpersonal conflicts means that 1 or both of you can't show up to the game, then we need to just, like, you know, cancel or reorganize or or or Change something else. Right? Communicate. Yeah. But, like, I am not it is not the role of the DM to deal with other people's Those real life problems Mhmm. That is something you can choose to do as a friend or as a family member or whatever. But that but that is not your role as a GM. Yeah. And I think that that is a danger that a lot of people fall into is they end up Becoming the sort of pseudo parent of their of their D and D group, and that should not be your your part in this at all. Yeah. I can completely agree to that. And I think the only role that the GM could even play in that is if something happens in the game that is caused by that. And then that's when you you you put down the line and you're like, okay. Nope. Like, this is not. You can't do this, and we need to talk about the situation and see if there needs to be something like you can't play like, you have to not play this game anymore. Yeah. It's like yeah. If an if an out of game conflict turns into 2 characters fighting in the game, and it has nothing to do with, like, Like, because D and D is all about, like it's all about consent, really. Mhmm. Right? Like, when you have intercharacter conflicts, it's like, oh, 2 player like, 2 players Couldn't ever be fighting, but 2 characters absolutely can. Your paladin and your rogue are going to go at it over one reason or another in your game. That's Fine as long as the players both can step out of that and go like, like, we're cool. Right? Like, oh, yeah. Yeah. Like, we're totally good. Like, this is purely just character based Shenanigans. Yep. It's not actually having a fight at the table. Mhmm. But it yeah. If you if it gets to the point where characters are doing things because Players are having issues and having a conniption with one another. That is the point where, yeah, if you recognize that as the GM, as the referee, you need to call a time out. Mhmm. Like, that is the scenario where as the referee for the health of the game and the stability of the game, that's And we can take a few minutes. Maybe you guys need to talk, but for right now, the session is done. Yep. Like like, that is that is the point to call it. I agree with that. And then they need to sort that out themselves. Yeah. Yeah. You don't need to lead. Like, hey. Like, oh, you need to talk to you and whatever. No. It does need to be especially, like, most of the time, you're playing with friends, but especially if you're not. Like, these are just Yeah. Random strangers that you're playing with. That is not your responsibility. That has to be handled between them. And then they knee and then it needs to be communicated back to the GM if things are okay or if there's still a problem. And that's, like, really the only thing. And that's only, like you said, for the health of the game. So Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And and and that is that is the extent by which as, again, as the GM that I'm gonna get involved in anybody's personal conflicts. Mhmm. It's just if I recognize that that's what's happening, I'm gonna stop the game, and it's not gonna continue unless everybody involved can tell me that it's been resolved. And, again, I don't need to be informed about any of that, any of the tit for tat. Oh, they did this in the game, and that actually upset me IRL. Like, I don't care. I don't need to know, as the GM. Now if I'm friends with these people as well, like, being informed as part of a friend group and your dynamic and whatever, like, that's all Separate. Mhmm. But I think, again, it's sort of, like, it's compartmentalizing of, like, as the GM of the game, the there really is no place for me to be solving your your personal problems. Yeah. Those are those are things for you to sort out on your own. You are a responsible individual as we all are, and we just want to spend our Saturday playing D and D. Like, we didn't we the we couldn't be doing anything else Other than this. So if we wanna do this, we all need to be here, be respectful to other people, and, you know, keep the social contract. Honestly. Yeah. Like, be like, show up and and and do what you're supposed to do. And if you can't do it, then all come to an agreement that you do something else. Absolutely. I think that though is a great way to end this episode. Yeah. Like, what what are the roles of the GM? Who's the GM? Why? What? All of those things. I think this is, if anything, is a good starting off point for people to just consider some ideas for how how you as the GM, what your role is there, it just opens up possibilities that you can start implementing into your games and see if they work for you. So I wanna say thank you so much, Zachariah, for coming on and talking to me about this. This was absolutely fantastic. I can't wait to again plan my next 1 shot. And if you guys want to check out Zachariah and the awesome content that he makes, please make sure to go to, DM skilled and search Zechariah, to find all of the awesome D and D 5th edition content that he has made, including that adventure with the hag, which I can't remember her name. Oh, auntie Eagerton. Auntie Eagerton. Absolutely amazing. That sounds like a blast, and that link will also be in the description of this episode if you would like to check it out. But, yeah, thank you so much, Zachariah, for coming on and talking about this. It's been a pleasure as always. Amazing. Yeah. So I think that is going to be the end. Thank you so much everyone for listening. And once again, thank you so much, Zachariah, for coming on. Greg