SAGAS - A System for EVERY Story & Genre!

Today on The RPG Goblin we are exploring SAGAS: Setting And Genre Agnostic System! This a new game coming to Kickstarter in January! 

I bring on Dennis, the creator of SAGAS to tell us all about it and how it is different from games like Fate and Cypher!
We dig in deep on the mechanics of the game and the focus on the d10 in this system, how the character creation is streamlined for new players, how the options of pre written characters and abilities help ease you into the game without needing to come up with your own custom ideas and the super fun world generator that is included in the book so you can randomly create worlds!

You can try the SAGAS playtest here: https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/442843/SAGAS-Beta-Playtest

Get SAGAS here!: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/okayestrpg/sagas-setting-and-genre-agnostic-system?ref=dpd717

Dennis's socials here: https://linktr.ee/okayestdm

Transcript

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Quick side note before we actually start this episode, there are a few times where the audio's a bit weird. It ended up getting a little messed up during recording, and I didn't notice until editing. So if there's points where it sounds like it gets cut off weirdly or the conversation doesn't flow as naturally as it does, it's because of that. And there's a few moments where I kind of sound sped up or things seem like they piece together a bit strangely because of this. So I apologize for that, but let's get into the episode. Welcome everyone to the RPG Goblin, a TTRPG podcast that makes Learning these games fun and easy for you because these are amazing games, and I want more people to know about them and, like, how cool they are. I am your host, Willow. I am the resident goblin and the one who asks all the questions, and I'm kind of obsessed with TTRPGs to the point that I just can't stop talking about them. So Fuck. In this episode, we are going to be talking about a new game coming to kick Starter. And it is called Sagas, and I'm really really excited because this is a it's a genre generic game. And those are always really fun for me, especially, like, games like Fate and stuff like that. So I can't wait to learn about this game. And to talk about it, we have on the creator, Dennis. Dennis, if you like to introduce yourself and basically tell everyone who you are, where they can find you and all of that cool stuff. Go ahead. Yeah. Thanks so much for having me. I am Dennis, around the Internet, I'm known as Okay SDM. I run the Okay SDM YouTube channel where I make mistakes running games so you don't have to. My latest project of thank you. My latest project has been, has already been has been mentioned is sagas. And sagas is an acronym for setting and genre agnostic system. I've been working on it for a surprisingly short amount of time as I've come to learn. It is the, Originally, we'll get into the history of it, but, it is the 1st, like, full stand alone game that I've designed. And, It has just gone off like a rocket, and I could not be happier. It is planned to come to Kickstarter in January. January. Boom. Oh, man. That's feels so far away even though I know it's not. No. No. It doesn't. It's it's like tomorrow, man. It's basically right around corner. It is. I'm so nervous. Well, I'm sure it'll be great. Especially saying that, like, you know, the fact that it's in kicking off, that's really, really exciting, especially for, like, kinda your first Big game. And, I would like to kinda start off with, like, what gave you the idea to create sagas? So sagas is part of something that has been referred to in the space as the OGL boom. And just from the name, I'm sure you can guess what it is. It's like, once the OGL debacle in January of 2023, happened, everybody started saying, oh, look at all these other really cool games. And everybody else that wasn't saying that was saying, I'm gonna design my own because I think I can do better, or something along those lines. I'm not pretending that I can one up Wizards of the Coast. I'm just 1 dude that's alerting as he goes, But it has been an absolute blast putting this thing together, and it started off as like the as like a, what if I design my own game? And from that moment, I real I just could not stop thinking about it. And I had, like, 18 different ideas in the next 2 days, and I'm like, okay. I gotta start putting these on paper. Get down. Get down before it leaves your head. Mhmm. Exactly. No. That's amazing. And, I I mean, that's actually funny that you said, like, the OGL boom because, like, I've never heard anyone say That but that definitely very much happened within the space. What I've seen a lot of is when that happened with the OGL, a lot of people went for, like, kind of fantasy games. And what you seem to have is, you know, a genre neutral game, similar to, like, Fate Cypher, games like that. Why did you go for this approach versus doing, like, a direct setting or genre? Well, I started to look around other games to play. And I realized, I didn't want to have to learn a new, like, set of rules Every single time I wanted to play in a different world or a different kind of genre. And some of those rulebooks out there for very specific genres are Super beefy and just Mhmm. I got intimidated, and I'm like, okay. I I'm gonna look for something else. And before I found all of those, Universal games that can be played in pretty much anything. I started designing my own. Mhmm. And, you know, you can't help but be compared to those, mainstays that you mentioned, Fate, Cypher, GURPS, stuff like that. Mhmm. But I I think I think one of the 1st things I did with sagas is I made it different enough from those systems that it merits its own creation. I I don't want to create, like, a clone of something that already exists. You know? No. I've been going over the playtest, that you have of it. And I can very much tell that it is different from the other games, that are kind of that generic and I'm very, very excited about it, especially with, like, the dice system that you're using for this game, with, like, kind of everything's like a d ten. Right? And, like, it can, like, go up and down and all of that. Yeah. That was one of the first, big Deviations from most of the games people have played that I put into it into this. So, essentially, I looked at what you do to make a check because I wanted to stick around with, like, what I felt was familiar. And almost my Higher background is in 5th edition Dungeons and Dragons. I've played I dabbled in other things, but almost all five e is what I've done so far. So I wanted to use that as a basis as, like, a launching pad and find what I feel familiar with and make changes from there. And I realized one of the things that I wanted to do with this is make it rules light and make combat faster, because that's one of the things that me and a lot of others get annoyed with With 5th edition. Yes. Very much so. So I had this idea. Like, early on, I, tried to get rid of all the math that you needed to do. And it took me a while to realize, but it's almost impossible to get rid of math if you're still using dice. And I really wanted to use dice because I know I'm a dice goblin. I have, like, I don't know, a 100 plus sets of dice at this point. Oh. Very fun. I am a fellow dice Goblin, and that makes me very happy. Yes. So when I what I did to change the main, like, basic idea of you try to do something difficult, you roll a d twenty, and you add stuff to it, and then, you Figure out whether you succeeded or failed. What I changed was I didn't want it to necessarily be d twenties, and I looked at that and I tried to figure out what Else, what other variables I could play with? And I came with a I came up with a couple answers. There's, I wanted to get rid of the modifiers. I wanted to get rid of the math. Right? I wanted you to be able to roll dice and immediately tell whether you succeeded or failed without the, like, dead air of adding 14 to 12. Which not everybody can do in an instant in their head. Yeah. So The variable I landed on was changing the size of the die you roll and changing the number of dice you get to roll. So it's sort of like damage in D and D, but you usually will roll 1 die. And I started playing around with, like, what is the probability if you roll, d 12 versus a d 10 versus an 8 versus a 6. Mhmm. And I landed on, having it be a roll low system, so you can still easily crit no matter what. If you roll a 1, you do extra damage. It's it's simple as that. Yeah. I love roll under systems or roll low systems. I just think they're really, really fun. And this I've I'd honestly, I don't think I've actually played a role under system before I started designing this, but I can really, really see the appeal, now that I've got my claws into it. There's just something appealing about rolling a 1 and succeeding. It just Yeah. Yeah. It is. And I like I like the idea that you can still roll a one. You can still roll the absolute perfect success Mhmm. No matter what Die you're rolling. Even if you have to roll the biggest die in the game, you have all the drawbacks. You can still roll a one. Absolutely. Now I like that a lot. And so the selection of dice are a d 6 through d 12. Right? That's correct. We'd I didn't wanna go with d 20 because d 12 to d 20 is just, like, too big of a jump Probability wise, and the same reasoning for a d 6 and a d 4. Like, the difference is from, what would it be? 17%, I think, to 25% chance of rolling a one is just an enormous gap. And so I just did away with the d fours, entirely. And I'm right now, I'm considering, like, putting them in For, you know, like, super powered moves or, really, like, extra legendary equipment and stuff like that. But right now, I'm I'm still, shying away from it just because of that probability gap. Yeah. I think I mean, I think it makes Sense to shy away from it for that. And, like, almost what I think would be cool is if you did add in the d four for, like, maybe that being an alternate rule. Like, oh, if you if you want to have these, like, overpowered type abilities or things, you can have the option of adding in the d four to the game, which would actually be kinda cool. Yeah. I think it would be. Like I said, it's still, the the free version that is available right now is, version 0.7. And it is probably going to only evolve slightly from here before, we start Playing, like, I'm gonna send a finished version of the rules, up to, out to a bunch of, sponsored channels. Some of the bigger names that I can't Talk about yet, we'll be playing sagas, and I'm super excited to see what, all these channels that I've been watching for forever, get to do with my system. It's gonna be really fun to watch. Been watching all along, playing my game, you know, what do they think and how do they use it? But even just people in general, like, actually getting to use this thing that you've been building up for so long, which actually how long have you been, creating sagas for? It's really it's been pretty much nonstop since, I first conceived of it during the OGL, debacle in January. So as far as game design goes, not that long. But I think that's okay. I think I've put the time Required Intuit. I spent 2 months doing pretty much nothing but live playtests. Doesn't include the ones that I've been doing off screen, both on my own and, you know, with private groups. Mhmm. I think I've done, like, As far as actual games, I think maybe, like, 50 40 or 50 Oh, that's really good. Since January. Mhmm. So my it has been, like, pedal to the metal the whole time, but as far as, like, number of months, not that long. Yeah. And I know, like, as over time as you add in new mechanics, like, having that constant playtesting is Really, really good. Mhmm. It real it's been super helpful. Yeah. And how much do you like, Through the playtesting so far from, like, kind of the initial, you know, playtest draft of this game, how much has it changed over time? Oh, so much. I still have, like, the oldest draft save of version 0.1, and it is almost unrecognizable. That's great. Mechanic has changed so many times during early stages as I played around with, whether I want to Change the number of d twenties you get to roll or the number of d twelves you get to roll. Maybe the d twelve will be the main die of the system. And that's it's it's just so much has, evolved since then. And that's that's only looking at the actual main mechanic of making checks. That doesn't include, you know, the Movement and the map measurements and the, character building and the ways that you spend effort. That's The effort is probably my favorite thing, and I'm sure we're gonna dive into it here. For sure. Absolutely. But but the it there's been, A a countless number of changes. Even in the if you go on Drive Thru RPG, you can see, the changes that Got made between version 0.52 and version 0.7. Mhmm. And it is a long list. And there's a there is there are ones in there that just say, many minor changes to insert thing here. Of course. No. I love that, though. Like, it's changing all the time. And I think that's the coolest thing with, like, developing a game. Like, I've never Dabbled in developing a game before, but I think that would be what I would have the most fun with is like, okay. How is it changing over time? You Now how is it evolving, and that's just so cool to hear. I love it. And so how close do you think right now that you are to the final version of the game. You know, you're you're releasing in January. That's still even though it's, like, right around the corner, it's it's still a few months away. Is there going to be additional playtesting and changes to the rules you think? So one thing I'm scared of, Just like any artist is I feel like it's never going to be perfect. Mhmm. No matter how much work I pour into it, Like, even after the release, I know there's gonna be things like, ah, I should've fixed that before releasing it. Mhmm. I'm sure that's going to happen many, many times. So I'm going to do make it the best I possibly can how I am right now. Mhmm. Maybe I'll come back to it one day and, like, Make other modifications and release a 2nd version if it does, like, super well. Mhmm. But right now Yes. Yeah. There but that's that's a long that's, like, years years down the road. Right now, I think it is The basic rules, like the first 10 or so pages of, you know, how combat works, the different actions you can take, How movement is measured, how checks are resolved when you try to do something difficult, that's pretty solid. We've been playing with those rules for a long time now in the in the light as far as the lifespan of the game goes. And I think we've ironed it out pretty well. There aren't there aren't many wrinkles left. Like, I'll find 1 every now and then. But, since version 0.7 got released, I haven't seen I think I've maybe changed one thing in the first 10 pages Mhmm. And, not including, like, reorganizing the document to make it easier to read and look better. Of course, let's do the layout. I I think the the basic rules are pretty pretty solid. But the The the features that you get to tag onto your character, you know, basically, your traits or racial features, the struggles that your character has, the, Powers that they get to take, those are going to change because even with the amount of play testing we've done, there is a lot in there that has not yet been touched. Oh, yeah. And it's just, really, it's just theory crafting, for a lot of them. There there's a couple that get chosen every single time. Like, I don't think I've played a game where someone didn't take the struggle anarchist, or the struggle What's the other one that's really, really popular? Impulsive theft. That one gets chosen so often. Oh, what a fun mix. I love that. And, I mean, that's the I think that's always gonna be the trickiest part is, like, when you are playtesting, unless you're, like, building up the characters. If you just have really cool, like, abilities that, like it's like, hey. You can pick from any of these, and there's just a few really cool ones. It's hard to Test everything when it's like people are like, I wanna do this. Yeah. Yeah. It it is. I love that, though. I think that's really fun. And I think the best way as well to even get started about talking about this game more is, you know what do you think is the most important place to start off with to explain how sagas works? It depends. If you're coming from a place of no TTRPG experience, Then I would start with, you know, resolving checks. Your character does something difficult. You roll dice. The size of the die depends on what sort of things you chose in character creation. Mhmm. And the, a game master will set A difficulty and if you roll at or below that difficulty, you succeed. If not, then you fail. That is the most basic, and I Skipped, like, 5 things in there. But, that is that is the bread and butter of not just this one, but a lot of, TTRPGs out there. Oh, yeah. Of course. Coming from a place of like, you've played, you know, your fair share of games, then I would probably point you to what makes sagas I think the thing that makes it the most different Would be effort. Mhmm. So a lot of systems have, you know, spell slots or mana or Stamina or PowerPoints or something like that, to track how much energy that you are spending on your abilities. Sagas takes all of those and combines them into effort. There are a lot of different abilities that can use it. Most of the Spells or, powers that you take can, they use effort to be, cast or used. And that is not the only thing that you can do with effort because they'll, like, obviously, not everybody is going to be a magical powerhouse. And in order to be a setting and genre agnostic system, it might just be set in this world. So there's no manna. Like, there's no, there's no stamina or there would be stamina, and there are things that you can use effort for on there like, parry encounter, for example. You can if Someone misses you, you can spend 1 effort to attack them back immediately. Oh, yeah. Of course. Which I was, like, carrying in games, so I like that that's in there. Yeah. No. It it's we we tried our best to another gripe people have with 5th edition is Marshalls versus casters and balancing and stuff. Mhmm. So we tried to make it them pretty equal as far as power level goes, so people don't feel Feel like they're being left in the dirt. And I mean, when even though, like because I I know in this game, in sagas here, You have, like, abilities that you can choose from the actual book, but you can even make your own. So it's kind of difficult to like, it's It's interesting the way of like, how it balances itself out because you don't know what people are going to choose, and you don't know, like, what event custom, like, traits Some features and stuff like that that they can even make. I like that you are putting in the thought of, like, how can this resource be used among many different, types some characters. And there are one thing that, we needed is there needs to be ways to always like, Even if you don't take the necessary talents and powers in when you level up and create your character, there should still be ways that you can use this resource because it's like a main, like, part of the game. And there's a lot of different ways you can do that, and I think this is where, As a game designer, I was able to mold the game into exactly what I wanted. Mhmm. The first The way is you can spend 3 effort to gain 1 die on any check you make. And if you Roll multiple dice, you just take the lowest one, sort of like advantage in D and D. Oh, yeah. So If you you can spend 3 efforts to gain 1 die on any of your checks. But if you are you can also help an ally, And that only cost 2 effort. So it is more efficient to assist your allies in combat or out of combat than it is to help yourself. Mhmm. I wanted to cultivate this sort of Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. I really wanted to cultivate this sort of, Camaraderie and teamwork vibe, that is missing, I think, from a lot of player groups. And one of the best parts of all of my favorite games. Yeah. No. I Some of my favorite moments and some of my favorite mechanics in games are always ones that players can actually, like, interact with each other in the game mechanically like, give give each other, you know, advantages. Like, I love that so much more than you just get a bonus to damage. Like, oh, Because you did this attack, you get you you can do an extra damage, and that's not like it's a bad thing. Just the extra effort to add in mechanic, like, to help, like, create teamwork, I think, is Really, really fun. So when I saw that, when I was reading through sagas, that made me really excited. Mhmm. Mhmm. And I think the next one of combo is pretty much the same thing as help. You spend 2 effort, but instead of adding a die to your allies check, You add damage. Mhmm. And I think that is, perfect for, like, anime combo team attack Versus the final boss where, everything everything can, like, stack. So if the if All there's 5 you have a 5 person party, right, and 4 people combo with the, with the one that's about to hit the boss, Then there's going to be so much damage done. It's so cool. Like, just the visual of that. Like, everyone working together to do this one attack. Yes. Yes. I think that's one of the supplements that I'm Going to be considering or, I think maybe, like, a stretch goal in the Kickstarter is insert optional rules Specific to anime. So you can play more and more, like, how those stories are told. Like, you don't necessarily have To die when you die. You can come back next episode in some fiery flame fashion. Be the deus ex machina that the party needs, something like that. Always required. I love that. And Mhmm. I I even love the idea that you are considering, you know, as stretch goals adding in those optional rules of play. Because I think, Fate fate and cipher, I know for sure. I've never played GURPS. I've never looked at GURPS. No one yell at me. I I think I want 2. I I don't know if I want to either. There's, like, a a 1000000 books, and it stresses me out. But In Cypher and Faye, I know that they have a similar thing of, like, oh, here's how to play a superhero, game. And I like that you're also adding it in. You know, I I I hate to compare, but, you know, with those being kind of the best references for this type of game, seeing you Mhmm. Do that because I think that's valuable for even any type of game. Here's how you do this. I think it's really cool. Yeah. I mean, obviously, with game design, you have to take ideas and just steal from the best. And then Mhmm. One of the One of the quotes I heard I think it was actually my younger sibling that told me this. And they said that, in order to make something new, You have to steal someone else's work and then screw it up and then screw it up and then screw it up and then screw it up and boom, you have something original. Perfect. Oh, man. That's good, actually. Because it's so true. Like, it's it's It it is. It's the whole thing even with, like, reinventing the wheel. Like, there's a 1,000,000 different ways you could figure out how to do, like, damage in TTRPGs, but there are ways that are already really genius that you can just take from and adapt in your own ways. You know? Make it your own thing just by using that as a base. Some of my favorite games do that exact same thing, and it's like, oh, it's so cool. I recognize that mechanic. No. I love that a lot, and, actually, It makes me, curious. I know that you mentioned, referencing stuff that you liked in 5th edition and being able to use that as a point of reference since that's been a majority of what you've played or that you've had experience in. Are there any other games or systems or even, I guess, like, it could be even board games, that you've taken inspiration for them, Sagas? Pretty much a little bit from everything that I've played, which Albeit, it's a pretty short list. Mhmm. But I think the other big one is the idea behind effort Comes from Easy d 6 by Scottie DM and Runehammer Games. They have something in there called karma, Which is basically, you can make your roles better by failing more. So every time you fail, you generate these karma points, And you can use those to add and, make your future roles better. Mhmm. And I thought that was just an excellent, excellent balancing mechanic Because, I have players at my table all the time that just roll terrible all night. They just don't roll above a 5. You know? So I I straight up just stole that. The main way you regain effort is every time you fail a check, you get 1 effort point. Mhmm. And and it doesn't matter, like, what kind of check it is. Even, when if a monster attacks you, you have to make an avoid check to get away from it. Even if you fail that check and you take that damage, you still get 1 effort Point back. I love that. And and it makes failing feel less sucky. Like, even though, yeah, you're still failing and you take the consequence and all of that. Being rewarded in some way just feels good. Like, okay. You know, I love that in part of the pop ups games. If you fail, you gain experience so that you can level up later in the game. You know? In this game, you when you fail, you get the effort, and you can actually use that towards roles in the future or to help your friends out. I love it. Mhmm. Powered by the Apocalypse was another, little bit. Like, I've never actually played it myself, but I've Seeing plenty of, you know, Monster of the Week games. Mhmm. So that that was another place that I stole this from. Yeah. It's it's it's a good system. I need to Need to play it at some point. Add it to the growing list of things I'll never touch. Oh, save. Of course. Like, I I have way too many powered by the apocalypse games on my shelf, and it's like, I've only played actually, I have 2. Oh, yeah. I'm at 2 instead of only 1 for, like, 7. And Monster of the Week is my favorite. Like, anytime that I think of it and anytime that people ask, like, oh, you know what powered by the apocalypse game? Monster of the Week. Like, just straight up. Even if you don't like the intro to be totally honest with you, I don't know any others. Like, monster of the week is, like, the one that I know is powered by the apocalypse. That's that's so interesting. Yeah. I mean, there's I mean, monster of the week, I think, is the most popular. There's also, of course, the, you know, OG, Apocalypse World, you know, where this all came from. Glitter hearts, masks a new generation, which is about playing like teenage superheroes. There's a, Let me look back at my shelf for a moment. Thirsty sword lesbians. A booklets Oh. Movies. Okay. Like, there's a lot of stuff. I've I heard all of these titles. I just didn't know that they were running on the same engine. Yeah. And that's that's at least the cool thing that I find A little off topic, obviously, right now. The cool thing that I find found powered by the powered by the apocalypse is the fact that a lot of them, you know, use Use the same base, same system, same engine, all of that, and they just do wildly different things. I'm like Apocalypses. It reminds me of if Powered by the Apocalypse, Grindlewood Bay had and made a really amazingly tense RPG. And, like, monster of the week does its own things, with even I was talking about this recently of having, different types of, like, NPCs and monsters and being able to, like, Use that to dictate how they or not dictate, but, to reference of how they would act and things like that. So it's It's such an interesting system because the base is, like, always consistent, you know, 2 d 6 and the different tiers of success and failure. And then so many people make it their own, and it's amazing. That's my little rant of powered by the apocalypse. No. It's it's it's it's It's, we can segue. We can segue, because I'm planning on doing the same thing essentially with sagas. So, this is a relatively recent update to the grand scheme of the plan. Oh. But I'm going to be releasing, A couple of supplements. So 5 additional, like, pamphlets to go with the game. They are 3 of them are going to be settings, and 2 of them are going to be adventures. Mhmm. And they'll just be, like, you know, additional content that you can like, because One of the problems with the game I find is, or or with any, universal system is People look at it and they get choice paralysis. Mhmm. Like, I I don't know what's what I want to run. The options are limitless, and I can't pick. So I want to have I wanted to have something, like, of, like, actual choices. Like, I wanted to provide a setting Just in case you, are that kind of person. I love that. Because I want this to be as accessible as possible. Mhmm. You know, I think that's great, and that's definitely the biggest thing with I'll I'll use fake con because that's been the one I've I've read the most of and I know the most of. It is genuinely terrifying, though, to kinda go in and be like, alright. What am I gonna run? You know, what world and even from a, character standpoint too, because in fate, they don't have a lot of, like, prewritten aspects or, stuff that you can choose for your character versus creating it because I'm pretty sure it's Your creation. It is on your it is it is on your plate to create these aspects for your character. And that's what I also found really neat about when I was reading through sagas is that you had a bunch that are already premade and then the option that you can make your own so that it kinda limit it it puts some it, what's the word for it? It puts options that are just out there already, And the players don't have to feel like, oh, man. I don't know how I can create a character that has 3 different abilities that I have to create. No. You can just pick from a list. Yes. No. I'm not I didn't wanna, like, say, it's, it We started with that at one point. Like, I like, I'm not gonna lie. Most of this is just most of these creation for these, talents, traits, struggles, equipment, stuff like that, has just been me following those rules exactly. Mhmm. I'm I made a template of how to create these, different things. And I'm just using that same template to create some options to pick from. I love that. It just and it also makes it a bit more accessible to new players as well when to a generic system because those can be very intimidating to start with. That's why even I actually when it comes to thinking of a system to introduce people to, I always go to powered by the apocalypse because it goes by those tropes. You know? It's it's pretty simple to understand. A generic system is, like, almost on the complete other side. Like, even though it could be easy to pick up, if you are introducing someone to a game and say, hey. You can play anyone or anything you want. Terrifying. So I love those options so much. Are you are you planning at all? I'm just curious, since I've seen quite a few games do this, where they have, like, pregenerated characters within the game for people to run it as, like, you know, with the new group. Just being able to introduce them to the game without having to struggle with creating a character at first. Oh, yeah. So if you scroll down to the last 2 pages, there are 3 wonderful, wonderful pieces of art on the cover, done by Rook 0. He's my artist. He's been wonderful to work with. But what I love it. He made all 3 of these pieces, and then we worked together to smash them into the cover. Stop that. I took those 3 original pieces, And, I made them into actual characters. And Mhmm. One thing that a lot of people in their reviews of the system have said Is they really enjoy that all 3 of these pregenerated characters have a leveling tree with with them. Yeah. Like, so you don't have to I I'm every single game that I've played, which, again, wasn't a lot, but Every single one that I've seen has you know, they come with those pregenerated characters, which is super helpful and useful, but they don't Help you level up those characters. And with this, you could jump in with any of these 3 characters at whatever level you want, And you will have exactly what you need, already prebuilt. You don't have to go through and make any decisions. Super, super helpful and easy. If it's your 1st time playing, you don't necessarily wanna be, you know, weak and about to die at all times. Yeah. Of course. And and, like, it it does, I guess, also, like, set that example of how, you know, the character was made so that people can, you know, reference it even if they don't end up using the characters. And I guess the idea in a lot of games is when they do make a pregenerated character, they I guess the assumption is by the time you level up, you You are into the game enough to, like, know how to do it or, like, want to take that character in their own direction and stuff like that, which I think is fine, But this offers both that, hey. Here's we can kind of handhold and walk through this level up process, Or you could even go in your own direction if you would like to and make that go your own. So having that having those different choices Yeah. Even with that, I think is really, really good. And I think it's it's nice to have, but not totally necessary, especially for, sagas because the level up process for this game is Seedingly simple. So I I remember we were playing a, there's a livestream over on Mistress Winter's Court Channel on Twitch and YouTube. And we were playing a Horizon Zero Dawn game. Oh, it was really, really cool. It's set right after the, main siege of, Meridian. Oh. And yeah. So I it was really fun. I got to play, someone from the, Shadow Carja slash Eclipse maybe, and he was dealing with being from the losing side and trying to figure out where his life was gonna go from there. It was really, really cool. But the one of the players in the middle of the game realized, wait, we're not at level 1? We're supposed to be at level 3 or 4 right now? Oh, okay. We'll just finish this session. And, in the middle of the game, During his downtime while the camera was, like, on other players, he completed his level up. Like, it it was like, within 10 minutes, he had leveled from 1 to 4. I love that so much. Lovely now. It it It It takes a while. Yeah. It takes a while because it's like, okay. Now you can look at all the feats. It's like, I I spend, like, 30 minutes just looking at feats, and I'm like, why can't I just Why can't it be just simple? I am so done even though, like, I love playing my character. There is just something about leveling up and crunchier systems at points where it's like, If you do it too much, I want to die. Yeah. You have to go through and okay. I'm increasing this stat to this number. So this This skill, this skill, this skill, and this skill, and this skill all go up by 1. Okay. Let's go erase those 7 numbers and change them. And it's it's just a hassle. But in sagas, the only real Time you have to take when you're leveling up is, choosing what to spend your new leveling points in. Which, I guess we can get a little bit into that. Specifically, how do the characters get Abilities and things that they can do. Like, how does the character creation works, since those are kinda tied in together? Yeah. So you can't level up without a character. So I think we'll start there. So to have. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's helpful in that endeavor. So character creation. You start off with 2 health. Hey, everyone. It is time for the midpoint break. I hope that you are enjoying this episode so far. A quick reminder that the RPG Goblin is to get a 1,000 listens within the month of November. So, generally, I would always ask for, hey. Leave a review if you're enjoying the episode, but also make sure to listen to other episodes of the RPG PG goblins, share it with your friends. Leave a review and just be generally awesome to help us reach the 1,000 listen goal so that we can have A live TTRPG party. Woo. But for this episode, I just wanna say that, thank you for bearing with any of the The audio issues, I know that they were probably a bit obnoxious. I know that they were very annoying to try and edit out. And I tried to make it all sound as natural as possible, but sometimes you don't notice that something went wrong during recording until afterwards. So I do apologize for that, but thank you so much for sticking around. Make sure to check out sagas. Again, the link will be in the description of this episode because this is a very, very cool game. And I'm really excited for it to come out on Kickstarter in January, which is only a few months away. Insane. But today, we are going to have a promo from our good friends over at 5 GMs in a trench coat. Now if you don't know who 5 GMs in a trench coat is, then you are seriously missing out because this is an amazing group. Probably, one of my favorite play groups that I have listened to. And currently, they are on their 1st season of their actual play show where they decide to play a new system every season. And their 1st system and their 1st season is a fate game where they play as dragon riders. It's really, really good, and so I can't recommend it enough. And let's get to the promo to see what it's all about so that you can go check out 5 Gyms in a trench coat and give them all the love. Hello, everyone, and welcome to 5 Gyms in a trench coat. Excuse Excuse me. Yeah? What's that? You wanna know what 5 jeans and a trench coat is? Let's tell you. It's the adhesive that keeps the fragile pieces of my sanity Together. Well, okay, Jesse. What it actually is is a narrative driven TTRPG actual play where 5 friends take turns weaving stories through the tabletop game of their choice. Of their Choice. Each season? Each season. That's pretty cool. I disagree. Oh. I feel it's the adhesive. So, Like, you guys aren't all in a trench coat? No. We're definitely in a trench coat. How does that work? Get Before I'm caught, you can check out 5 Gyms in a trench coat just about anywhere you get your podcast, or you can check out our website at 5 Gyms in a trench coat .com. Oh my god. They really are all in a trench coat. How, you know, how do the characters get, like, abilities and things that they can do. Like, how does the character creation works, and so those are kinda tied in together? Yeah. So you can't level up without a character. So I think we'll start there. It's it's a good thing to have. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's helpful in that endeavor. So character creation. You start off with 2 health And 2 effort. And that might seem super, super low, especially for only having 2 health at level 1, but Pretty much every single attack in sagas does 1, sometimes 2 health, points of damage. So 2 health is, like, 1 to 2 hits away from death, which is about the same as any level 1 character builds that I've seen in other systems. It's just smaller numbers, which I think works just fine. Also makes math I don't wanna feel less math. Exactly. You just have to Count. It's so easy. You don't have to add and subtract. So you got your help and effort. He wouldn't have to add. Right. Don't ask me to divide. If you divide, I'm closing that book. I'm out of here. So, the You get your 2 health, your 2 effort. You get to choose 2 traits, and you get to choose these from a list or, like we said, you get to you can make your own, especially if you're familiar With the ones you already have and have a specific idea in mind, they're all rules for, how to make that a reality inside the game and not be super broken. And traits are basically, like, usually physical characteristics about your character that can't be changed. So, these are sorta like racial features in D and D. You know, you've got a, prehensile tail that can grab things. You've got wings. You are a plant or a Kryptonian, and you have photosynthesis. You draw an energy and heal from the sun. There's there's a lot of different and some pretty wild things in there. If you choose 2 traits, you also have to choose 2 struggles. And this is where people get really, really into their characters is when they have to find out what their character's flaws are Or what they struggle with in in life. And they can vary. Some gen generic games, I think. It's doing the flaws and the struggles So good. Yeah. It's it's it's really fun to, like, explore who is this character going to be in, by defining what They can't do well Mhmm. Which feels counterintuitive, on the surface. But, if you understand how, like, characters And stories work and what makes them compelling. Struggles are super important. So a lot of people dive into this really hard. And struggles can be anything from, you know, physical drawbacks, like, like having, bad sight Or not being able to taste anything, to, personality traits, like the ones we said earlier, arrogant, anarchist, impulsive theft. There there's a lot in there to choose from, and there are a couple that are very, very popular. But, there's, I think a total of, like, 20 to 30 each of traits and struggles. Mhmm. And then still the option to create your own. Which is a lot of good anxiety. Yeah. No. It's it's a we find it's a good number, especially To start with in a core rule book. Absolutely. Then you get into the really fun part of choosing your talents and powers. These, instead of being static things that just are true about you and, they don't change, These are the things that grow with your character as your character grows. Mhmm. Things that you can pour more energy Be into when you level up and make these skills better. These will be your, things like control fire, which could be fire spells, or, Say you're in a cyberpunk setting, it's you have flamethrowers for arms. There's, one of those for each element. There's some Summoning things, there's summon goblins, summon dragon, raise monsters, so like a necromancy kind of thing, or, it's been flavored as Putting nanites into the your slain enemies and reanimating them under your control. I love that. So those yeah. Those are the powers. Yeah. I I really like that. When a player pulled that on me, I'm like, that's that's so creative and amazing. Those are your powers, but there's also talents. And the difference between them the only difference between powers and talents is that talents exist in our world, and powers usually do not. Like, you're not gonna find a fire mage who lives as your next door neighbor In I mean, I wish. Pretty much all cases. I I don't. He's my next door neighbor. I don't want him to burn down the apartment building. I mean, I guess that's fair. If it's an evil wizard, you know, maybe maybe there would be some problems. So talents will be things like, weapon training. That's the biggest one in talents is, like, you get To roll smaller dice, which is better on, when you swing your sword or crack your whip, etcetera. Then there's other stuff that is, out of, combat abilities like, being like investigator or, journalistic instinct, which helps you find people, like, specific people and get information out of them. There are things like, being able to disarm your opponent. There is, bodybuilder, which you gives you an advantage to either look strong or actually be strong and move something heavy. You know, there's a There there's a distinction there. Those are 2 different things. For sure. You can look super ripped, but when it comes to moving that boulder, it's just bigger than you are. Exactly. You're you're just not strong in that way, and that's okay. But I I do love, like, how you are explaining, like, some of the mechanical, values to these, you know, abilities as well or to these talents. Because, you know, I love that it's, like, both in and out of combat 2 because that's always something I felt. What if I just want to be able to do something cool out of combat? What if I wanna be really good at negotiating, when it comes to selling something. You know? What if I want these different things and having those as actual options people can pick? Love it. Yeah. And that's that was a necessity going into this is having those options because, you know, you can't have a You can't call it a setting and genre agnostic game if you can't play a rom com with it, you know, with no magic, no combat. You know, it's it's, we we we actually did that once, in a private game, and it was freaking wild. It was so much fun. That sounds really, really for, like, a Victorian drama. Exactly. Exactly. You need and you can do these things with sagas. And, like, I don't know if I've said this, but every single genre, setting, world we've Tried to run inside this game using this system. Every single time, we are surprised with how well it fits together. I think my best example of this is we played Pokemon in the postapocalypse, in, like, a nuclear winter where, you know, the The humans have destroyed everything, and, them all the humans are dead. All of the Pokemon that they had on them at the Time are dead, and now the box storage system is finally failing. And these Pokemon that were boxed forever are emerging out to see this broken world, and what has been set up since then. And it was it was a you can watch that on my YouTube channel. It's so cool. I need to see the snap. That sounds genuinely insane, but in the coolest way, it's full. It it was I'm not gonna lie. It was one of the ones that I was forward to the most and, like, folk not necessarily focusing on when designing the game, but excited to try out once we got around to it. And boy, the players did not disappoint. Oh, that's so cool. And that's what it's also like, You know, because people can make the arguments of any system can be set in any setting or genre. You know, you can change any system for it, and, like, that can be true. But I think what makes the system agnostic or these genre and, you know, setting agnostic systems the best, is the fact that, like, the character creation itself, You know, the characters and the tools that it gives the GMs are built for exactly that. You know, you aren't limited on how to change these mechanics in a way that works for you. Instead, it's already there in front of you, and it already gives you tools on how to do it versus trying to figure out how to Play a rom com in d and d five e. Like, it can go. I don't wanna try to figure that out. You you but you'd have to throw out, like, most of the book. Like, Exactly. Percent of it would be useless. Is that like, when everything when so many abilities revolve around combat, it's like, okay. So we're not gonna engage with pretty much all of the game, and we'll just get role play. That's fine. Yep. But, like, if you Like, you could do that just sitting around a table for fun. We can just improv role play together, and that's fine. If we wanna do that, cool. And, like, I I feel like if if someone has the drive to make d and d five e work as a dating sim or or rom com or whatever. Like, more power to you, but A lot of people It's probably been done somewhere already. For sure. There's, like, there's a lot of supplements for D and D. I saw I saw one the other day that was, like, Waifu, like, supplement, I'm like, oh, I I think I've seen that too. Yeah. That's a compliment. But, like, you know, good good on you for wanting to change and, like, knowing the rules enough to be able to do that. But a lot of people, including me, I don't want to have to do that anytime I just wanna play a different setting or a really cool idea that is outside of kill fantasy monsters. And that is the basis of what I created sagas to be, so it's perfect. Yes. It is. I love it so much. It's really, really cool. And so, with the character creation. We got a little off topic there. It's fine. Yes. Yes. Character creation now, how level up works. So I actually, no. There's a couple more pieces of character creation. There are there is optionally, you can choose to have instead of 2 traits and Two struggles. You can get 3 traits and 3 struggles, which is fun. But the other big thing that we or I, Sorry. Glossed over, is equipment. You just get 2 pieces of non advanced equipment. So you can go through and pick out well, advanced is basically anything that is too broken to have at level 1. So, you know, your master sword, your lightsaber, your, world ending ruby, stuff like that. I want a world ending Ruby, though. That would be fun. Well, they're the closest thing we have to a rule ending Ruby Me right now is, my personal favorite item. I am a, big fan of, you know, cosmic horror and that genre in general. And so my favorite item is Effigy of an Elder God. Basically, I actually, I can read you the rules for it real quick because it's not like this is behind a wall right now. This is Free to access for everybody. Yes. On drive thru. Correct? Drive thru Yes. On drive thru. It is free. And Even in its final iteration, it's gonna be just pay what you want. Like I said, I want this to make this I wanted to make this as accessible as possible. I want as many people as possible To be able to wield this effigy of an elder god. Yes. I mean, what's so wrong with that? No. I I think that's exactly it. Yes. So, like, Just engage with the cosmic core. And there will be a link in the description of this episode for everyone to go check out this game on drive through. You can get it yourself, and then you can check out and see how awesome it is. Yes. Thank you. So effigy of an elder god. While holding this effigy, you can use an action to summon a bolt of, And I quote, acid lightning to strike 1 enemy in mid range. This attack uses a d 8. If the attack hits, the enemy loses 2 health. If the attack Misses, the bolt hits you, and you receive the wound indoctrinated. So wounds are sort of like status effects. They don't necessarily do damage, But they will, provide drawbacks like you can't move or, stuff like that. Mhmm. And this Ingenctronated wound is you cannot willingly let go of the effigy, and you must use this effigy as your action for the next 3 turns. So, essentially, you go insane temporarily, and you just shoot acid lightning everywhere. And acid lightning could be interpreted However you want. It's not a thing that exists, but it evokes a certain, crazy image in my mind, and I find it does the same for other people. So we just kept To them. Yeah. No. That's insane. I love that so much. And I like, again, it's so cool that it has the drawback because I can just imagine now, like, someone, you know, having it hit them and it being a whole thing of even the party maybe trying to stop them from I can take get it off, and, like, there's so many scenarios that could come from that. I hope that's so good. Yeah. It's it's it's a really fun piece of item, really fun thing to have. And you can get it at level 1, because it's I I want the chaos to happen. Yes. Another surprisingly A very, very surprisingly common item to grab, for level 1 characters is a crowbar. Oh, of course. You know, simple Yeah. And I didn't I didn't expect everybody to go for the crowbar, but I feel like most of the games I play, I look at their inventory and I go like, you have a crowbar? You have a crowbar? You have Crowbar. You didn't get a crowbar. Are you sure? Oh, you are getting crowbar now? I shouldn't have brought it up. Well, I actually, I'm so curious why. What did they do what did they do them? It's real simple. If you use a crowbar To open a door or container, the check to may the check to open may use a d 8. And doors and containers are notorious In D and D and I assume in other games for being the true big bad that stops the party in their tracks. Whether whether it be just messing around trying to open it or it actually, you know, being impossible to open. Mhmm. Mhmm. I've done that to players too. It's fun. And this just means, you know, a d 8 is is is still The like, decently high. It's not as high as, like, you know, a 10 and 12, but, like, you know, it's better. And so, you know, a good chance to open the door, I think that's understandable. That's valid. I know. I I I get it. Oh my gosh. That's so funny, though, that, like, every single person takes it. I it's they really do. I'm not even kidding. So that is how, character creation works. And that, us disc in the time that we took to describe what it is and, like, our meandering path through, examples of things you could take. You probably could have made a character in that time, really easily. And I think the same is gonna be true with leveling up. Mhmm. So when you level up, this is a big change that I made recently. But it used to be When you level up, you get, a point of health, and you get, you get, points to spend in talents and powers. So each talent and power has different ranks. And at level 1, you can only have up to rank 1 in anything. At level 3, you can only have up to rank 3 in anything, etcetera. Mhmm. And so you get these points to spend in them, and you can pick new ones. You can level up what you already have to Give you, additional related bonuses. Like, you're good at swinging your sword, but now you're better at swinging your sword. Yeah. It gives me, like, skill tree from, like, video games and stuff like that. Like Yeah. A little bit. A little bit. Mhmm. And so that that's usually what takes the most time is decision paralysis and where you're gonna spend your rank points. Mhmm. But the, big change we made is it used to be that you had a static amount of effort, And that didn't change no matter what level you were. Mhmm. Quickly, we realized that wasn't, very popular. People wanted To get more effort, be able to do more things, more often. Mhmm. So we decided that you can choose Whether to gain when you level up, you get either 1 more point of health or one more point of effort. So in the end, you can build either a tank or a glass cannon, totally up to you, and it's very easy to do either. You could go all the way up to the highest level the game allows, which is for now, level 10. You could have Twelve effort. You could just pile bonuses onto your own roll. Spend off spend all your effort, roll 4 dice, Almost certainly get a crit. And you still only have 2 health. Like, if someone farts on you, you're gonna die. Oh my gosh. That's so good, though. But I love that, you know, there there's that level of custom mobility, though, and I think that's really Great. And I am curious of something. So you mentioned how people gain effort when they fail roles. Is Yep. The Is the number of effort you have, okay, like, as you level up and put a point in it, is that, like, a max so you can't go higher than that amount of effort? Or can you go higher than that as you gain effort through fail, failed roles? That is the maximum. So, the one one problem that we're We're trying to find a way to, encourage players to use their effort more often. Mhmm. And the way we do that is, You know, if you have all of your effort and you fail checks, you just fail checks. There's no benefit to that. Mhmm. Yeah. I I think that's That makes a lot of sense because I'm, like, why not use the effort? Because if you're gonna fail anyway You're you're gonna get it back real quick. Yeah. It happens all the time. You know, it's it's very fun failing in games. It happens a lot. You know? It is. So no. I think that is that that's good to know because I I was questioning that when I was reading through, the PDF. I'm like, okay. Is this like a max thing, or or can you go over? Is it something you just Stack and resets at some point. Cool. Cool. Cool. And so, you know, as you spend your effort towards your talents and things like that No. I I like that. That's fun. Very cool. And I just wrote down a note in my own document to make that more obvious because this is still in development. Yes. And I love like, I I dread the day when I will no longer be able to make these changes as I talk to people about this Game. Oh, yeah. Because then it's like, I can't touch it anymore. So Exactly. It's done. I can't I can't modify it now. I'm sure every game designer has that. Like, I I can't imagine, like, Like, oh, you know, people complaining about, oh, you know, this rule doesn't make sense. I I did this instead. It's like, oh, well, that's actually a good point. Shit. I can't do anything now. Or, gods forbid, like, a spelling error or grammar error inside the document, and you're like, oh, Now I look like an idiot. I tried so hard to avoid it. Mhmm. Mhmm. It I'm gonna copy edit this thing, like, 10 times. It's gonna take years. And that's what editors are also for. It's like, other people, please do this and and and check if it's okay. Mhmm. I got a portion of the Kickstarter bud budget dedicated to that. But, even if even if the Kickstarter doesn't succeed, if I do something wrong in budgeting or, I don't, like, market it enough and not a people not enough people learn about Sagas. Mhmm. I'm still going to go through with, like, finishing up the game. It's just not gonna be as clean and pretty as I would have liked it to be. Oh, yeah. I think that makes a lot of sense. And that's also good to hear, you know, just you know, because Kickstarters aren't for sure you know, You can actually do something fun. Exactly. So having a plan after that is is fantastic. And I am curious for the Kickstarter. Are you planning on, doing, like, PDFs and physical books, or are you just going, like, digital? This is my 1st Kickstarter. So I don't and I've heard, many, many, many nightmare stories about other people that have run Kickstarters with, you know, physical, physical Bonuses rewards Mhmm. That they have to then send out to all the people that, you know, bought those with the Kickstarter funds. And, the fulfillment for that just takes forever and takes so much effort and is not. It has absolutely nothing to do with what we love, and that's game design. Like, though those skills do not come into play when you're trying to send the same book to 500 People. So it it'll be it'll be just the digital stuff, in the Kickstarter, but the final iteration is going to be on Drive Through RPG. So once that is out, people will be able to purchase a print on demand copy. I think that's a fantastic plan, honestly, because I have seen quite a few nightmare Kickstarters, with physical things. I like, I'm just Yeah. You don't wanna another makes me Barge, she gets stuck stuck in the canal again. Yeah. Something like that happens. It's tricky, and it's I think that's always what, pushes things back is when you do have to have that like, that physical element. Like, okay. You know, we we needed to do some changes because of the the printer or something went wrong with the printing or, You know, there's shipping delays, stuff like that. Doesn't mean, like, it's bad. And as long as there's open communication, at least for me, I'm like, okay. That's fine. But as, like, a 1st Kickstarter, Avoiding it is very smart. Mhmm. I wanna learn how to kick starter before I learn how to do difficult kick starter. Exactly. Yeah. So full digital, I think I I know people also have their preferences. I mean, I love having physical versions of books, which is why the Drive through down to me. Love it. But, like, as long as you have a digital version, I mean, I'll still read through books digitally. Now if that's the only option that I have with them, I'll do that no problem. And I I am curious of how, long this book is going to be, whether or not there are would it be feasible for people to even be able to print it out? Stuff like that. Oh, yeah. So, that is one of the big Selling points, not necessarily being able to print it out on yourself, which you totally can do. But even the document that I'm looking at now, which has my notes on it And all the art and the layout and everything, in, like, a, the layout that I've done, It is only 36 pages. That's it. That's like nothing compared to, like, when you crack open a D and e book and it's, like, 300. Exactly. Exactly. So that was that was another big, thing that I wanted going into this game is that I if we, Keep it short. It will, 1, be faster to develop, and that absolutely has been true even though we've been doing it for 10 months now. But, Being only, still under 40 pages, makes it super easy to consume. And once you if you really want more content, there is build your own guidelines in there. Oh, perfect. So I am, actually a bit curious about That is, like, these, you know, under 40 pages. Does this include, like, you know, obviously, basic rules and then there's the whole thing with character creation? Is there a, proper, like, GM section in this game? Right now, there is not. I am planning on doing a supplement that is going to be partially for the, sagas And, partially, just my advice from experience that I've done just like like I introduced myself. I run the Okay SDM YouTube channel, Where I make mistakes playing games and running games so you don't have to. I take the lessons that I've learned, And I reapply them to my games. And I've been doing this for almost a decade now, like learning By trial and error, trying out new things that I see on the Internet like, making players track initiative. I never track my own initiative anymore. That's something that the players can easily do, and it's such a huge, load off my brain Oh, yeah. Of being able to know who's gonna go in. I even have players, track monster health sometimes. They don't know the maximum. As long as they count up, I can just ask sometimes. And, when they're getting close, I'll I'll start actually keeping track, and it's makes it super easy. Certain storytelling aspects, You know, of how to make the players feel amazing. Like, if they you've they played games with you before, have their old player character show up in their new game. That is a huge, huge hit every single time it happens. It's so true. So, like, things like this are going to go into, this GM book of just, like, general advice for running tabletop role playing games. And a portion of it is going to be, you know, this is saga specific stuff, like, how to run these monsters. One thing we are considering as well is having a a supplement that is itself a game master, Because this is a system where the players make pretty much all the roles. Like, the monsters just have, like, static numbers constantly. And so it could very easy easily be turned into a solo or GM less TTRPG, which is something I'm very excited to explore once we get, this core rule book off the ground. You know, that is really interesting. I mean, I could definitely the the solo, like, element of it and how that would actually, you know, work out really well, which I I always love, games that actually Don't have the GM roll a ton. You know, I've already got a 1000000 other things that I'm doing. And, yes, I love dice, and I want to roll them. But, also, like, if I can just have you roll something so that you can see if you get attacked or not, that's great. I prefer that. And it it keeps also people more engaged in the game too. Like, it's like, oh, you're putting all the pressure on them. Mhmm. But, No. I I could definitely see it working as a good system to run solo like that. So that's really Exciting. And for these, type and for these, like, supplements that you're planning on doing, Are these going to be offered along with the Kickstarter? Is this gonna be something that comes with the core book in general, or is this something optional? They are going to be, optional, and they're going to be, you know, available at higher tiers of, pledges for the Kickstarter. There's going to be, like I said, 5 total. Mhmm. 3 of them are gonna be settings. 2 of them are gonna be adventures. All of them I've played in before, obviously. I'm going to be playing in them multiple times, but I'm Mhmm. Saving most of that work for actually putting these together and finalizing them Mhmm. For after the Kickstarter to make sure that, that option is still, you know, viable. I had a ton of fun over the last couple weeks putting together the cover art For these supplements, and, oh, I've been learning so much about graphic design, but I'm I'm super, super happy with how pretty they look right now. Oh, man. That's really, really exciting. So I mean, to to potentially, like, you know, share a little bit. If you have any ideas of do you have any, like, set, settings or adventures that you are gonna be including that you know for sure. Or is that something that will be, like, you know, fully fully decided? Like, you don't wanna say anything yet because you don't know until after. I've pretty much decided what the supplements are going to be. They are just the adventures and settings that I've had the most success with so far in playtesting sagas. Mhmm. One of them probably the oldest one, And the one I've done the most often is one of the adventures called The Garlax Chronicle, and it is a cosmic horror, mini adventure, like a Couple of sessions. You could level up in the middle in the middle of it maybe once. Mhmm. But it is something I originally wrote for Dungeons and Dragons, and I wrote it for, like, a an 11th level, playthrough. And me and my friends from College ran it a couple times, and this was, like, 5 years ago or something. Mhmm. And they had a great time, and I learned a lot about writing adventures, and I said, okay. This is gonna be the first one that I'm going to rewrite and rerun with other people. Oh, that's so cool. And that was one of the That was one of the 1st big projects I did on my YouTube channel is I toned it down to a level 4 D and D adventure instead And ran it with, my fiance, and 2 of the first friends that I ever made in the, TTRPG content creation space. And it was so much fun to put together, to run. I had a I had a blast Terrifying all the players. They had a blast being terrified, and I ran it again recently also on stream, for, a new crew. And this time, I used the saga system. And instead of setting it in, like, this fantasy realm, we set it in a trailer park, Like a modern trailer park. Mhmm. And it worked super well again. So I think I the that one's Was the first one I decided on. This is going to be, the first piece of, Saga's extra stuff Mhmm. That I'm going to put together. I love that so much. And the fact that it's, like, also personal to you. It's like we get to actually, like, see, Like, man, I just I I love that about indie games, especially in indie game designers, that they can actually include things that are personal like that to them into these games that other people that then can, like, witness. Like, that sounds really, really fun. Oh. It's really cool to see stuff in, people's in other, like, indie developers, like you said, of, like, this This idea, like, this little piece of it is from something else that I did, like, 10 years before this game even started being written. And it finally gets to see, public light in this, game that I've created. And Garlax Chronicle very much falls into that category. Corey. I'm just curious of the experience of running it through D and D versus sagas. I think it was More fun in sagas, to be honest, because there was that like, setting it in a trailer park just felt better Instead of setting it in, like, a town that's far away from everything in like, vaguely, but having it, It was much easier to, like, describe things because I could use more real world experience to, Say what's going on, and, the players could more easily picture the things that are going around on around them. Mhmm. And I I felt like I just had more freedom with being able to tell the story inside that system than I did in D and D. It just connected better. I love that. Mhmm. Oh, so I just again, that that kinda got me because, like, this is what I love about expanding off into the world of TTRPGs and into these different systems and and games that are designed for you know, either when it comes to some of these sis these genre Genre agnostic systems or even something hyper specific like masks, a new generation Mhmm. Literally just being about playing teenage Superheroes trying to find where they basically belong in the world. Like, you can play all of these different things, and you can find something that tells these Stories that you really wanna play the way that you want to play them. You know? Even though, again, you could have done kind of that Trailer park scenario in D and D, technically, you might have didn't even, like, consider it, and that wasn't something you did because of even just the setting of that game. You know? Yeah. I mean, you don't think magic when you think trailer park. Yeah. And so it's just I I love it. On that note, there is something that I did wanna talk about. One of my favorite Recent additions to the core rule book is in, it's in the what is sagas section. You know, describing exactly what the game is, you know, what is a TTRPG, what makes sagas different, doing all that stuff. But one of them is, like, let's see. The title of it is sagas can be played in any genre. Mhmm. And inside there, there's a table Of different Yes. Describers of worlds and genres and settings that you can play in. And what you do is you roll 3 that's the only time in sagas where you get to use a d twenty so far. But it there are 20 options here. So, if you roll 3 d 20, you will come up with a, setting. So do do you have dice handy by chance? I can Okay. I am actually very excited about this. And before we do it, when I was looking at this, playtest earlier. I was on, a call with my partner, and I when I saw this, I was looking at them. Like, this is really fun. And I just was really amused by the idea of, cyberpunk western, and so that just made me really happy, and I wanted to share that because I just that just sounded so fun. There there's there's some wilder combinations in here. Alright. Go ahead. Roll me roll me 3 d 20. Alright. We got an 18. Oh goodness. Alright. 88. Okay. And, that's another 18. Give me a moment. And a 12. And a 12. So we're looking at a historical Cyberpunk intrigue game. So, my first thought for this is time travel. You're from a cyberpunk future. You've you show up in, London mid Victorian era, And, you have to find out, who else came back with you and stop. You know, it could be stop the end of the world, stop the crown from being stolen, something along those lines. I love that. That's so good. Yeah. No. This this was this was just as amazing as I thought it would be. Oh, man. And there's especially because there's also different ways that You could interpret it too. And, like, again, I love that there's also the list of, like, here's more so Here's more so actual, like, settings, and here are more so genres too. You know, it kinda does give you that mix that you can match and match, like, If you get, I'm trying to think of a good one just from looking at the the list. Like, horror doesn't give you too much. Like, horror is pretty general. But then when you do, like, cyberpunk horror, that gives you something more than Oh, yeah. Yeah. This is just a horror game. Cybernetics are starting to eat you instead. Mhmm. Yeah. It's starting to corrupt like, there there's some or or even like a, some sort of robotic monster even that's, like, completely And you said that you said your 1st roll was, 188 and then another 18? Yeah. It was 188 and another 18. So if you, there is an instruction at the top that says if you roll doubles or triples, reroll or lean into it. We could do historical historical intrigue. So you're all the way back in the stone age, and you have to, make sure that the, power of your clan stays stable. This gives some real Doctor Who Shenanigans. Yeah. I'm here for it. That's one of the settings that has been, most played so far in sagas Is doctor Who going to all the different worlds fighting cybermen and Daleks and Oh, yeah. No. That stuff. You did like, even though, like, I I look at doctor who and it's like, yeah. That's a monster of the week show. I was like, no. There there is a level of goofiness that you need something like like the system like a generic system to run because oh my gosh. Yeah. No. That's like, literally, you could make any of this into a doctor who episode. Oh, this is fantastic. Yep. I I know what I wanna do now. Tell me tell me what's on your mind. Well, I I now so I've been the the biggest thing is just like I I've been watching a lot of Doctor Who, and I've been running a lot of games for my friends. And so my immediate thought is, like especially since this is a playtest, I now kinda wanna run a few games using kinda that idea of doctor who, different people, aliens or or or maybe, you know, we'll see what kind of characters they wanna play traveling throughout, you know, worlds and You know? We'll see exactly what happens because maybe it's maybe it's they kick some robot butt. Maybe it's a solve a mystery. Maybe it's a really Dramatic, like, Victorian drama type thing. Like, there are so many options. Like, that like, that just, like, feels like the perfect scenario for this game. Like, just something where you have a consistent cast of characters that just switch up the settings consistently. That that's one of my Favorite, like, pitches that I've heard, of, like, doing the same characters in different worlds. And there's even a bit about that In the, in the What is Saga's page at the bottom is mixing world. So you can, like, you can do your, doctor who meets Pokemon or whatever. Like, the just the wildest combinations. Like, these these doctor who characters get transported into the Pokemon universe. One of the, one of the play tests we did live was really, really fun because I it was one of the first times I got to actually play in sagas live. Mhmm. And what we did was I started out in, like, this, this sci fi, western setting. Fun. So or no. Like a fantasy sci fi western setting. So, like, you know, the sheriff was a snake, and there were the the bad guy had, like, some sort of portal magic, Science stuff going on. Mhmm. But the plan, the pitch for the whole game was rotating settings and rotating game masters. So the session that I played ended with the entire party getting sucked into a portal, and then we cut black screen. I love it. Come back the next week. Someone new is in the GM chair, and they're putting the the players emerge from these port the portal Into this different world. Yes. And we got we got to reflavor their abilities to match the world. So, Like, your fire mage is going to have those goes fire mage goes to a cyberpunk world. Now they have normal hands, but there's no magic here. So, they can, morph their arms into flamethrowers. Mhmm. And reading it like it's really, really fun to take The characters that you love and have been playing for a while and reflavor them into a new setting Mhmm. And a new genre. Oh, man. I really want to play this. Oh, man. I Me too. I wanna I wanna I wanna just Sit down and play my own game right now. I'm feeling really in the mood for that. Yeah. Well, I think that's That's the also the cool thing about game design, at least in my mind, is the fact that, like, you come at it with you wanna You wanna create a game that you're gonna have fun playing. So, like, of course, you wanna sit down and play it. And, of course, you wanna enjoy it and play it and just do all the things because this is a game that you want to play. You are designing it in a way that makes you excited. Like, that's just the coolest part. And why probably Yeah. And, like, at the end of this, I'm going to have exactly. And at the end, I'm going to have my favorite game. That has never existed before, and I'm the 1st person to, you know, experience it in full and understand everything. It like, it's It's it just makes me so excited. You know? Well, oh my gosh. No. Absolutely. And we're probably getting to the end here, unfortunately, because this has been a fantastic conversation. Yes. Goats. You could go on for very long. No. But this this seriously has been amazing, and I do want to before we You know, there's there's probably 1 more thing that I wanna ask, but I'm gonna save that for the very end. Is there anything about sagas that we haven't talked about that you want to mention before we, start to close here. Let's see. What are all my selling points? Where's my elevator pitch? I think I think the most important thing to impart upon you, dear listener, about sagas, is that this is free. Like, the core rule book is going to be so accessible. You can just go download it, and even if you don't end up playing it, you can just, You know, have your copy. Mhmm. And if you do feel like playing it, there are going to be options for what setting you can run it in. There's going to be all sorts of worlds that you can explore. I just really hope that you get a chance to open up that door like I have, and really open up into the possibilities of where not only your new characters, but even, like, the characters that you've already built And what they can experience in a different setting. Yes. I I especially love that, You know, the characters that you have built in a different setting, you know, how because that's that's another thing I've always wanted to do, is create a character in, like, multiple For games, but like, this feels like a really fun one. Like any any system, neutral or, sorry, setting neutral, TTRPG I always find to be really fascinating, but this one I'm, again, very very excited for, especially with the combined with the idea of, like, the different worlds. I love it. But now that's Yeah. One of the one of the biggest, most common, like, Reactions people have to reading through, like, character creation, while, like, I'm reading through with them. It's like, oh, I could just remake my old character inside the system in, like, 2 minutes. Mhmm. And I've I've had plenty of people that just actually did that For the game we were playing. Might as well. Like, like, it's It's amazing, and I love that that can work because that can be so difficult to do in other systems, especially ones that are so specific or specialized. And while, again, like, everything has its own advantages and disadvantages, I just think, like, if you really like that idea of playing, Like, that same character, those same character tropes, and just, like, seeing how they can change between different games and, like, different choices even with character creation. I think this would be a really good game for you to play. So I know people really like that, and, oh, that would be very fun. No. Like, seriously, thank you, like, so much for talking with me. Like No. Thank you. This has been a blast. I mean, I get I got to Talk about the thing I've been working on, the thing I've been obsessed with for months. Of course, I'm gonna have a good time, but I think this is like I've done other interviews before, but I think this was definitely one of the most fun ones that I've been able to do. I feel like, I feel like we connected. I definitely wanna do more stuff with you in the past, so we'll stay in touch. Oh, yes. No. I would be very down for that. That that would be fantastic. Just thank you about what you said, you know, about this being super fun because that just is always my goal. And, you know, I think, Again, like I said, unfortunately enough, I think we do have to end here since getting to about an hour and a half, almost 40 almost 40 minutes somehow. The final question that I love asking all all people just because I I like hearing their answers. And even though I may know the answer to this just with what you said earlier, What makes you the most excited about Saga? I think the The thing I'm most excited about is the actual process of creating this game. I've learned So much already, and I learned so much more whenever I, like, work on, different aspect of it. You know, cover design, graphic design, I've been learning that. I've been learning publishing. Even, like, learning how to license this game was fun to do Because of, like, the purpose behind it. So this, like I feel like I've really found my calling because I've been doing this for 10 months, and burnout is nowhere in sight. Oh, man. That's I mean, that's where it's impressive. If you can do something for 10 months and not get tired of it, Fuck yeah. No. That's amazing. And now I'm, like, so curious as well because, you know, you mentioned even doing some, like, Smaller games or some smaller things before. No. Sagas may not be the only thing that you do and, potentially, what you could do past that. And if you even do anything past that, that's really exciting. Oh, man. I've I've got plans. I've got Plans. Some of them are just, like, shadowy vague ideas. Some of them are more solid, but all of them are there. There's gonna be stuff. I can promise you stuff. Yay. Stuff. Whether or not it haunts you in the corners of the room in the shadows and, you know, it makes it, like, chaotic. It's it's it's it's all stuff. No. But, like, seriously, once again, thank you so much for coming on. I think This is the end here. It's been absolutely fantastic talking to you about sagas. Please, everyone who has listened to this episode and if If you really enjoyed what you heard about sagas, check out the link in the description of this episode to go to the drive thru page and get sagas for yourself. I will also include the link to the kickstarter when it is up in the description here too, which is, going to be January 2024, which is a terrible thing to say. Oh, god. It's a real year. It's approaching. It's it's It's upsetting. But, yeah, all of that is going to be in the description along with all of Dennis's, social medias and thing and places that you can find him. But for one last time here as we wrap up, Dennis, can you please go over all of your socials and all of the things that you'd like to promote before we wrap up? Yeah. I mean, I've been promoting sagas this whole time, and, like, there's not much else that I'm working on. So, I run the, I run the Okay SDM YouTube channel where I make mistakes running games, so you don't have to. I have too many social media sites, So you can find all of that and all of the extra sagas links. We've got there there's just so many links. You can find them at linktree/ Okay est d m, all one word. That's linktr.ee/okestdm. We've got, you know, the Kickstarter link in there. We've got the, the newsletter link in there, which I send out a weekly update on the, Progress of sagas along with a new phone or desktop wallpaper every week for free. So if you go over to that link tree, you'll find all my stuff. Perfect. And that will absolutely be in the description of this episode. So Whether you type it or or get it through there, just go check out Dennis's stuff because this all sounds amazing. And to also hear some of these really cool games cool. But, yeah, I think this is it then. All of those links will be in the description of the episode. Thank you so much, Dennis for coming on, and thank you everyone so much for listening. Bye. Bye bye. Craig, where do you live?