Exploring Power Gaming w/ Zakariah - What is it? Does It Harm Games?

Today we talk about and explore the concept of Power Gaming in TTRPGs with Zakariah!

With a huge focus that if you power game in a group where everyone enjoys that style of play that is amazing and a great way to play! Power Gaming can only be harmful if it causing conflict in the group and lessens everyone's fun just like any other play style!

You can find Zakariah on DMsGuild by searching his name "Zakariah"!

Or here: https://www.dmsguild.com/browse.php?keywords=Zakariah&x=0&y=0&author=&artist=&pfrom=&pto=

Transcript

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Welcome everyone to the RPG Goblin. I am your host Willow, and I am the one who asked all the questions. We talk about all kinds of games on here and also what I'm gonna start calling, ttrpg topic episodes, which is basically where we just talk about a cool full thing in TTRPGs. We've done, like, adding horror to TTRPGs, and we've done several with Zachariah, and those have been great. And we're gonna be doing another one today all about power gaming, within TTRPGs, which I'm very, very interested about because Zechara is like, I've had this on my mind. I just need to basically let it all out into the void. So we are the void today. But, before we get, you know, too much into the topic, Zachariah, you are our guest today. Would you like to introduce yourself and tell everyone where they can find you and other cool things that you wanna say about yourself, and yeah. Yeah. Hey. I am Zachariah. I am a forever dungeon master. I make a lot of content For D and D that, of course, that I use in my home games, but, also more than I can use in any home game. So I end up publishing it on DM's Guild. And so if you look up my name on DM's Guild, z a k a r I a h, You'll find a whole bunch of stuff that I've made, and, it's all free. So if you end up seeing any of it, feeling inspired by any of it, stealing any bit of it, I love to hear about that, so feel free to reach out because it makes me, very happy to hear that other people have, Found the things that I've, you know, pulled out of the ether, entertaining for their group. So Absolutely. Which I think is fantastic. And he does have some really, really great content in his GM's guild, and I also will have a link to it in the description below for you guys to go and check out. But, yeah, I do want to preface this episode a little bit with because we're we're gonna be talking about power gaming, which is a, you know, pretty big topic in TTRPGs. And I wanna say that like, However you want to play your games is okay as long as everyone at the table is okay with it. You're being safe and respectful towards people. This is just, this is just a space to kinda get out our irks or ideas and stuff like that on different topics. But if you like to power game and min max and stuff like that. And as long as everyone at your table is okay with it, that is okay. But, Yeah. I just wanted to kind of preface. That is so fair. It's like every every play style is valid if everybody at your table is having fun. Whenever you're talking yeah. Whenever whenever you're talking about, like, disruptive behaviors that is always a bit of context For it. Right? Like, is it disruptive if nobody at your table cares? No, it isn't. It isn't a problem. Exactly. And so there's no right way to play these games. The only right way is for everyone to have fun and I'll be on the same page. So with that out of the way, I want to start getting into the topic of today's episode, which is power gaming. And, Zechariah, if you would like to Start off and just explain what power gaming is to everyone that is listening just in case they don't know or just as a refresher. Yeah. Yeah, it is important to define your terms for this because I have seen like plenty of Course about power gaming. And there seems to be a lot of very disparate ideas of what that constitutes, online. And when 1 person is talking about their idea of power gaming and somebody else is talking about their idea of power gaming and those don't line up, you end up Discourse like it's absolutely nowhere, and sort of, you know, it can leave a bad taste in everyone's mouth by the end of it because, we we were arguing doing about different things. Mhmm. So that just feels like the slogan of Twitter. Honestly. Yeah. Like, the Internet, in general, any open forum. It's like, the first stage of, like, an actual, Like philosophical discussion is defining your terms, which can take forever to be fair. Like you may never get to the subject at hand because you spend so much time defining your terms, but it's important because like, if you don't, if you're using the same words, but they mean different things to each of you, Then you end up with this sort of, like, weird, what is it? Like, equivocation happening where somebody is trying to equate one thing to mean something else that they didn't intend, or they're trying to put words in the other person's mouth. Yeah. So, so what I'll, I'll be using as What I'm defining power gaming as is a style of gaming that focuses on maximizing progress towards Specific goal. More specifically, using in game mechanics, external information, Or or role play concepts to favor your own character or story and give them an unfair or unrealistic advantage. Mhmm. So I'm not talking about knowing how to play the game, because because, what you may have noticed there in my definition of power gaming Is it kind of has overlap with meta gaming, which would be, using a strategy information or question that your in game character shouldn't be capable of or aware of. Mhmm. I think a good way to, like, distinguish that is, like, a meta gamer will just attack your troll with fire because they know that's their weakness. And a power gamer might justify it by having your wizard make a skill check first. Mhmm. Right? Like, it's not necessarily what the power gamer does there isn't necessarily a bad thing. And depending upon your Rule set of your given game. It might even be the right thing to do. So power gaming does have some, like, Overlap with meta gaming, but, power gaming is less specific, And you have more, you have I I guess you just have There there's more, breadth to it as far as, like, what is the power gamer doing that would be seen as a negative or disruptive behavior Mhmm. Where meta gaming is almost always seen as a negative behavior Mhmm. Which I can also argue against that, like, as a as a blanket statement. Right? Like, there is there's always gonna be some Level of meta gaming, we are people sitting at a table playing a game. So, like, there is always gonna be a bit of meta knowledge that is happening. Mhmm. But I I well, yeah. Yeah. So, like, there is always gonna be some of this, and that's where these terms get messy. But I think Overall, just to reiterate, power gaming is where your focus is on maximizing progress towards a specific goal. Alright. Hell, yeah. And so I did want to, talk a little bit on, like, what got you wanting to talk about this topic specifically, because, like, you know, power gaming is a pretty general TTRPG thing. I think If you've been in the space, you've probably heard the term at least a few times. But what got you specifically, thinking about it recently, good to talk about it here. An episode of a show that I generally like because it's entertaining. Well, and and I did enjoy the episode for what it is, but I felt like there was a lot of room that was Explored in it, but it was like a 5 minute show. So, it all started with an episode of Contested Roll, Which is a show that, it, like, follows, like, dimension twenty. Like, they film it as almost like an show type of thing. At least that's the impression I get. I don't think that they specially pull these guests to go on the contested role, And it's basically like a, debate about a given topic. I like the show. I like Debate. I like, Brendan Lee Morgan, who is, like, the host of the show. Mhmm. Fantastic DM. But this particular episode on power gaming was in, it was a terrible debate, Which is fine because it's a joke show. Mhmm. But they the The discussion seemed to focus upon making characters that were viable versus making characters that are not Very viable or that are underpowered. And I I think that there is a difference between making a viable character that follows the rules of the game And what most people are referring to when they talk about power gaming. Mhmm. Like, I think that there is kind of a difference between, like, Maximizing the given rule set to power game and just making a character that isn't bad. Yeah. Making a character that just works in the game, like, can actually function and do things, especially in some mechanic heavy games. Because I know some people are like, I'll give my wizard a six and intelligence. It's like, okay, then you're not a wizard. Yeah. Well yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Because, like, if you're making a character that isn't viable or that is Super weak or underpowered or is just, you know you're doing something for for, a joke where you deliberately underpower one of your characters pictures or break the build in the sense that it is actually unplayable. Like that's very different than Utilizing the rules that are in front of you to a degree for some sort of, You know, unrealistic advantage. Mhmm. And so Go ahead. Yeah. I'm curious on, like, some examples that you may have of, like, specific, like, a good character that, you know, just works in the game versus a power game character. Maybe within, like, Five e since most people do know that. Yeah. Yeah. So I think if somebody is Just wanting to use the rules to their benefit versus power gaming. I think one of the things that you have to take into consideration is, of course, the table that you're Playing it. Mhmm. As well as what rule set is being provided to you. The I wanna be very careful when I'm talking About power gaming only because I don't want to sound like I'm talking about people who are deliberately cheating at the game. Because there, There are similar behaviors there as well. But, okay, here's here's here's my example. So if somebody I I'm I'm gonna draw a comparison. If somebody always rolls twenties or always rolls high Because they're cheating their dice rolls versus somebody who has built their character to such a maximized state that they always succeed on their ability checks. In both scenarios, the net result is that you have disrupted the game by Making it impossible for you to fail. And Oh. Yeah. And I and I'm not saying that and 1 is definitely worse. Right? Like, if you're lying about your dice rolls, that is clearly worse, I think, like, Because you're being dishonest to everyone at the table because you're lying on a tabletop game. You're lying at make believe Like, come on. Using the dice for a reason. You're using it for uncertainty. Like, if we all wanted to just decide what happened, let's just play a storytelling game together. You know? Yeah. Yeah. You can you can always RP without the tabletop game part. Mhmm. Which is Definitely an interesting topic that I've seen a lot of people talk about too is, like, the idea of, like, fudging dice rolls whether or not it's good or bad even especially as a GM. Maybe that's a that's a different topic for a different game. I'm just like, it's bad. Yeah. It it's I I I I feel I feel particularly strongly on that, but that is a whole sideline conversation to go down. Oh. For sure. For sure. That no. That is interesting though because, you know, as and people may not even realize too, like, that They are kind of power gaming. Like it may just be like instinctual of like, Hey, you know, I want the big number. I want to succeed, especially in games where When you do fail, there isn't a lot of, there, like nothing else happens. Like, if you fail, it's just like, okay. That's the end. Versus, like, if you do succeed, you're able to do something. So I can get the idea of wanting to have really high stats in really high numbers. But kind of how you put it, you know, it's it kind of makes it so that, you know, you're always succeeding is not fun because failure is really fun. Well, failure is also part of the game, and I think that it comes down to, like Like, really, if you're playing a game and there's zero chance of failure, you shouldn't be playing the game. Right? Like, you should do something else that is and is a is a space where you can't have those same types of failures. Mhmm. Right? Like, that's sorta if we didn't as you said, if we aren't looking at the dice, Then why do we have them? Right? Like, it it it but that being said, like, the only reason that I draw this comparison is because What I'm talking about specifically is if there is somebody at your table who has built their character to be Very, very optimized to such a degree that the challenges presented are trivial to them Then the natural, like, I guess, the natural arms race that you've in it that you've triggered Is that your game master now has to make the encounters more challenging in order to confront the build that you've made that Otherwise, couldn't be challenged. And the and the thing that is a problem with that as a designer of a game is that if 1 player is a power gamer at your table and they have a broken character or that or a character that is just Extremely powerful. Right? Like, they've they've done their research. They found some coffee lock exploit That they've decided that they're gonna bring to your game. They found a magic weapon on D and D Wiki. Exactly. Like or they or they found, like, they found, like, the right, they found the right magic item that synergizes with their build in such a way that they found some sort of a gap In the rules that makes it difficult to challenge them. Trying to challenge that player directly on that build is going to kill the other characters at your table first. Yeah. Because they're not as powerful. Like, even if they're, like, solid characters still, they can't contend with things that are gonna be, like, way higher than what they can actually deal with. Well, yeah. Because it's like, oh, well, you know, your 1 character managed to find an exploit to get a bunch of big numbers and advantages on their roles in order to hit Mhmm. Very high target ACs or something, right? Or pass some very difficult skill checks. It's like, that's great for them. But if everyone else at the table is like incapable of succeeding at similar levels of check, Then as the power gamer, either the power gamer is bored at the table because they have nothing to do Cause they've like, cause they've like, they'll succeed at any challenge that's presented to them. Or you know, They're going to be challenged and everyone around them is struggling really hard. It's a very difficult thing to balance. And I think that is sort of the gripe that more people would have with power gaming and why it can be a disruptive behavior is because you would have to if everybody at the this is the thing. It's, like, If everybody at the table is power gaming, everybody hits similar thresholds Mhmm. For their level or for their Skill points or whatever system you're using. Like, if everybody is at a similar level, then it's easier to run the game Overall, that's even why we have, like, levels, right, like, in advancement. It's like it it keeps things consistent. Mhmm. It's almost like if you played a game where everyone was level 5 and 1 person was level 10. Like Yeah. Which, I've done that. I've put a character at the table that was a higher level than the other characters. And I can tell you it isn't fun. Yeah. It's been like not really. At least not with the way that most games are built. I should put an asterisk there because there are plenty of systems out there, I'm sure, that have Ways of dealing with those sorts of discrepancies, but those are built into the game. Yeah. When the game isn't really built to have that great of a Screpancy into it. There is no countermeasure in the design of the game for that. That is when it power gaming can be an issue. Mhmm. Because I I think that, the mentality behind power gaming Can vary a lot from 1 person to another. Mhmm. But I think that there is a mentality of winning the game that does drive Some players who power game that I've had experience with, to focus on their build rather than making a Character that suits the game and the table. Yeah. And it almost like the thing with power gaming too, especially Again, it's I I do wanna put a huge emphasis emphasis that it does depend on your group. You know? If if you are a party full of power gamers, you're Probably gonna do just fine. You guys are gonna have a great time. But like if you are in if you're in a group where everyone's like plain normal characters or just like pretty standard characters of the new power game. That like it kind of even it I feel like it even disrupts teamwork in a way because you want to be the 1, like, being able to solve everything. It it disrupts being able to kinda work together with the party because you do have that mentality of, You know, I I'm this cool character. I can do all these things, so I'm gonna solve all the problems and everyone else can just watch. And so it does get a little bit like I win. And from experience, I can say if you have somebody who is very into power gaming at your table who very much wants to, you know, like succeed on the challenge, That that person is likely going to, like, over the shoulder game other players as well. Mhmm. Because, well, if they built their their character to be super high charisma or Locke Can do all of this stuff or the, or even a very high decks build, rogue. Right? It's like, well, if they encounter a challenge that their particular build Can't pass. They might. Again, it comes down to the original person, but I do see consistent behavior in this Of like, they might end up telling other people, Hey, you should be the one to do this. You should do this. Because that is how we're going to get past this check. I'm going to go tell the barbarian that he has to go do this in order to activate this. You know, contraption. He has to go move this item Because he has the strength score for it. And that is not inherently bad To tell other people, hey. You're more suited for this challenge. But Especially with their new players too because you don't really know how the game Works. Yeah. So it does it is helpful, and it it can be a good thing. But if I think the problem comes when the person expresses that they Don't want that if they don't like when that person does it or if they can just do it in a way that's like Yeah. Hey. You know, you have fire magic and this is a troll and we know this already. You know, there there's a difference between being helpful versus over the shoulder gaming, like you were saying. Yeah. And and again, Context is super important for this sort of thing. But I do think that there this is where some people will say things like, oh, power gaming isn't an issue. It's like, well, if it If everybody at your table is super familiar with the rules, everybody at your table built optimized characters, and you're all Playing the game at a very high level, it probably doesn't matter to your table. It becomes disruptive when there's people trying to exploit the mechanics of the game either through a specific build that they found online that leads to, you know, Way too many spell slots being generated due to some sort of a hole in the rules. They're trying to exploit a certain Play style that their DM is unfamiliar with how to handle it. Mhmm. Another thing is you could take, what was it? There's a there's a couple of spells that you can kind of, hotbox your enemies with in D and D five e. Well, if you use, at its higher level games, so this isn't an issue for most tables. But Once you get, what is it, force cage, and if you have another character that can cast, I think it's sickening radius Sickening Radiance from Xanathar's Guide to Everything. It gains levels of exhaustion. It inflicts levels of exhaustion rather than just damage. Mhmm. And so you can kill basically any monster that can fit inside of your force Cage in 6 turns. And That's insane. They can't and they can't really do much about it, unless they are Also some sort of magic user spell caster that has prepared for this exact scenario. That is And and that is something that, like, if we're playing a video game and you find an exploit to the rules like that, it's like, well, there is winning a video game. Mhmm. But if You have that strategy. Right? Like, where you found this very niche scenario where you can hotbox any singular large enemy, Then your your game master is going to have to design around that strategy. Mhmm. And if You and and then you almost feel like that's adversarial. Right? Like, why is my DM targeting My spell casters by making every single enemy have dimension door. They can all dimension door out of the out of the force cage now. And it's like, well, they kind of you've you've backed your GM into a corner Mhmm. Through through game mechanics that are Technically, following the rules, but that are very much not in the spirit of the game. Because what if the d what if what if your GM Horse caged you into a hotbox with sickening radiance. Right? Like, it it isn't fair when you're trying to win the game that Hard Mhmm. To the point that you've found a particular unintended reading of the rules. Like, That is, again, technically correct that you can win a lot of very difficult encounters with. Yeah. And I think even the difference there too is, you know, using like, finding out that works in over and over again versus finding out that works and just using it. Like, let's say you get to the final boss of the entire campaign and you know this is Something that works because you did it once before sessions and sessions and sessions go. Maybe you should try it again. Like, because I think that learning techniques and learning cool spell combinations like that can be really fun. And Mhmm. Your players obviously good advantage if they are able to do it, have the slots for it and all of that. And I think that's a cool thing. And as a GM I would encourage my players to do that, but to how you were saying to just use that in every single encounter to basically, you know, win it instantly. That is where a bit more of the problem does come up. Yeah. Cause again, again, I, to counterpoint myself on that given scenario, if my players are using a particular strategy In order to, you know, thwart encounters, it does put you in a position as a game master to reflect Reflect upon the way that you're designing your encounters. Why are your encounters 1 large size creature? Right? Like, why are they? Why are these the source of encounters that you've been running? And are there more interesting things that you could do that would maybe challenge a spell caster in that scenario, such as There's additional enemies nearby. They don't put themselves in a position to be you know, like, they ambush the party. They get the drop on them first. They have a much bigger friend standing right behind you. Things like that can challenge that without feeling like you're directly targeting them. Yeah. But just to pull away the veneer on that though, You are still doing it to challenge them because as we talked about in like the other episode on like Being the game master is you are a puzzle maker. You are making puzzles to challenge people. Mhmm. Right? Like, you're trying to challenge your players. That is what we're doing here with the design. Part of the game. Exactly. So it's like you are directly Challenging them, but it feels very it doesn't feel very good when you can see the man behind the curtain Setting up the challenge specifically to counter the one thing that you maximized your character to do. Yep. Right. And then it and it and like you said, it is a bit more it it brings contention and it makes it feel like, you know, you are both adversaries and not actually, to, like, just in the game, you know, trying to Yeah. You're you're collaborating. Yeah. Like like, you are you are supposed to collaborate with your With your game master, they are one of the players at the table, as well. They have a different role, but this is sort of where, Like, in order to referee the game, you would have to talk to your player about that About that, like, spell combination. Right? Like, force cage plus sickening radiance. Hey. That particular spell combination, Does it really fit the spirit of the game? I know it's technically rules as written, but it is as disruptive as, you know, It is as disruptive as being able to 1 shot an encounter because of some other Rube Goldberg machine, right, that you've constructed. And it can lead to some cool moments, but I do think that using something like that is what leads to your like, it it leads to people complaining about the design of the game or saying that something is broken or banning something from their table, which is something that I really, really try to not do. Mhmm. But somebody who is power gaming, looking for Every possible advantage that they can is the most likely person to find those exploits and use them at the table. Yeah. Which, again, if they talked to you about it beforehand and you ok'd it, that's different. Mhmm. A lot of this sort of thing comes out when somebody just off the wall says, hey. I do this, you do this, and then this happens. And it's like, well, you have this expected outcome. But that's not a very healthy way to play your game either because you have this outcome in your head. If it doesn't work, You're gonna feel like the the GM has cheated you Yeah. Because you spent so much time working towards this very specific Rube Goldberg of events. Exactly. Yeah. You then have those expectations. And then, like, if it, you know, if it doesn't work as intended, you would maybe feel upset or salty or like Just like, you're not having fun then. And that is where, you know, actually, that is where the table does matter. The Play style does matter because yeah, a power gamer can be disruptive to a group, but the power gamer can also not be able to have the fun that they want to have because Exactly. They invest so heavily into this. Exactly. Like, You you want to have fun. And so I know that, like, you know, finding groups can be hard, and that's always gonna be, I think, a struggle when it comes to the tabletop space because everyone wants to play games, but scheduling and stuff like that is always difficult. Yeah. And play style also doesn't always match. Like, personalities don't always Always mesh well. There's not really a not really a a perfect method to make it happen. No. Not at all. But at least being able to keep in Mind what you enjoy and being able to kind of vet out the tables that you're gonna play like, Hey, is this okay? And if they say that power gaming, they don't like that and they're like specifically banning things. Probably not gonna be a table that you're gonna enjoy playing at anyway, because it's not gonna be the way that you're gonna have fun. Yeah. Because I think that there's, another good example. So one of my players is very, mechanically Let's call him mechanically inclined. Mhmm. I thought that's what you're gonna say. So so he reads the rules. He understands the rules Very well, and he builds characters that are well optimized. Mhmm. And you can jokingly look at his characters and say all of his Characters are completely broken. But they really aren't. They're just strong. Right? Like, they're just well made. They aren't broken. They aren't they they I have never had the experience with this particular player of his build ruining anybody else's good time. Mhmm. Right? Including mine. Like, it's never been an issue. It's just a well made character that Generally does high damage. They're generally built to maximize their success and minimize their Vaults. Right? Like, they are min maxed characters, but I haven't experienced disruptive behavior with Something that is designed to, you know, exploit a rule or or, you know, exploit a Combination of multiclass in order to achieve something the game designers didn't intend. Mhmm. You know? Yeah. Because there's no There's nothing wrong with playing a character that just works really well. Yeah. I think that's, I know that people call rogues broken all the time because they tend to be, you know, those fine numbers. They can succeed at a lot of things. But, like, That's kind of what the rogue is built to do. That is all they do. Yeah. Like, That's that's the one thing they're good at. They're good at they're good at that high dex. They can avoid things and they can sneak and they can pickpocket. And they give extreme bonuses to everything that, you know again, if you were if you were trying to make a character that never rolls low as your goal. Like, Rogue is probably the best way to go. Mhmm. And you could also pair that with, I don't know, something in 5 e, like the lucky feet that just lets you reroll dice forever. Yes. Lucky. But but the thing is, in in the way that in in five e, the way that the Rogue is designed, is that even if you Play them with, like, as an arcane trickster. Right? Like, they have some wizardness about them. They're still not equipped to handle every possible scenario Because if you've maximized your dexterity, you probably lack strength. There are scenarios where strength can be important. Yeah. They're, you know, they're they can be a spell caster, but they're not gonna be a particularly great one. They're not gonna be particularly powerful. So if you need magic and magical utility to get through a challenge, you need to have friends. And those gaps are what really creates, you know, the the dynamic of your party, and that that's really good. And it's part of the fun of games with complex rule systems is that yeah. Like, Everybody's filling their own niche. Mhmm. Which then gives everyone a specific role in the party too. You know? I I, like, I feel like I'm fulfilling a need that we have when I'm playing a character. Let's say I'm playing a support character. Like, I'm filling that need for support. I'm filling that need for someone who needs to be really evasive because sometimes you need that as well, being able to sneak around, being able to have movements, stuff like that. All very important things. Well and you can see in a lot of games that What I just said there about, oh, well, the the rogue isn't particularly, like, a powerful spellcaster. There is somebody out there Who will have made a build of a rogue that multi classes them with wizard or something instead. Right? Or that has managed to make a rogue that is an extremely high spell caster. Extremely high level spell caster that has, like, some dips in rogue enough to get all the rogue abilities from them, and has made a character that they have designed to fill Every utility niche. Right? Like, they they're just they are the ultimate utility belt. And you'll find a lot of builds like that involve things like multi classing because multi classing In 5 e is not very well designed. No. It it it is an optional rule, and that's why is because it was never very Well, optimized against power gaming, against people finding exploitative, like, multi classing scenarios. It's why So many things that you could find on YouTube of, like, oh, look at this. The most broken build in D and D part 9. Right? Like, is gonna involve multi classing. Yeah. Because it's just insane. Well well, because because you end up with a lot of unintended consequences, And your players have a lot more time to figure out exploits than your designers do. Exactly. And and even you do. That's the thing as well. Like, there there there can be a lot of pressure put on the GM to keep an eye on all of the things like preventing power gaming and preventing overpowered things within the game. But, Like, you know, it makes sense, but in at the same time, the GM only has so much time. Mhmm. It has only so much energy to put towards keeping an eye on every little thing that when you then exploit it, it also sucks because yeah. Maybe they're trying to keep an eye, but they missed to one thing, or they didn't realize that combination was gonna work that way. And then it, again, just gets a bit into that competitive relationship where you're trying to out master each other because you want to be able to play a certain way and it's the opposite way of the other person. Yeah. I think another, another good example, and this is, this is another thing that has like shifted. This is more of a just shift in tone for The tabletop RPG space in general Mhmm. Is that there's a lot more folks that play games That are more narratively focused than are focused on finishing the module. Yep. Because I think power gaming is is a different way to play the game. That again, if everybody at your table Power gaming, and you guys are like, we are going to play, Storm King's Thunder, and we're gonna finish this book in a year. Right. Like like, you can do that, and that's awesome. And that will probably require that you Use the rules of the game to gain an unfair or unrealistic advantage Yep. In any other Game. Right? Because you're trying to do things with the foreknowledge that one that you're playing that particular module. Right? Like, I'm not saying you've read the module ahead of time because that's a whole different issue. But just that you're you have an awareness. I'm gonna be fighting giants. Right? So you pick things that are going to be good against giants. Mhmm. You pick things that are gonna be good in a host of scenarios that you expect from that adventure. And you and your buddies are all getting together and deciding we are going to complete this module by all means necessary. We're going to optimize our Party as much as possible to cover every given scenario. And we're going to, you know, get as much experience as we can. We'll take on every Fight in scenario, we can, because that's how we're gonna level up. Like the phrase of, hey, we need to go kill x number of Things that way we can level up before the next chapter. Or like if you're using XP leveling, that is if you're not using chapter leveling. But that is an attitude that works at a table that is doing that specific thing that's playing that game where I think most people that I talk to or that I play with don't play their tabletop game as, like, similar to how they would play a video game. Yeah. And, again, in a video game, if you find an exploit in order to cheese your way through some sort of encounter or level. Right? You're like, I I really hate this level and I've found a way to exploit the game in order to just ease it really fast and skip it. Like, that's an attitude that if somebody took that attitude with a boss monster in one of my games, That would suck a lot of the fun out of the narrative for me that they're like, oh, I I know how to deal with the tarrasque. Yeah. All that I need to do is lie up above it and spam sacred flame a 1000000 times Or whatever other non I don't know if that would specifically work. I don't think the Tarasque has a health regen. Maybe it does, or maybe you would have to do, like, What is it? Like a chill touch? So it can't regain hit points and you just spam that in Okay. Infinitely. And it's like, well, they don't have any way of countering a Flying enemy. So I'll just stay 60 feet away from it and just spam this on it until it dies. And it's, like, well, that That is technically a thing that you can do. Mhmm. It does it one, that encounter being set up in that Fashion is probably not a very well designed encounter to be fair. But, but coming into it with that energy of like, Oh, yeah. I have found a way to, quote unquote, break the game. Right? Like, I've come in I've come here to win D and D. Yep. And I have found that the most optimal way to kill this particular monster is to do this thing that I know that it can't respond to and and win. Yep. Well Which is truly such a video game mindset, which again, there's nothing necessarily wrong with that. Yeah. Of course. Again again, it's like it's it's sort of just the difference of, like, if you're playing your game that way, that isn't the way that me, I, Zachariah, want to play my game. Hopefully, I've made the encounters engaging in such a way that you want to engage with them. Mhmm. Hopefully, I've made them engaging in a way that you want to engage with them as a character in a story. Yep. But Imagine you've set up this huge narrative thing where it's like, oh, the monster's dangling your character's Sister over a pit of lava, and your player is, like, yeah. But, like, I have I have repelling blast on eldritch blast, so the fastest way to win this encounter is just cast it on the villain and knock them into the lava pit because lavas do 6010 of damage every single turn, and that's gonna be enough to, You know, it'll have difficult terrain. It won't be able to knock itself. It won't be able to get itself back out. I know that this enemy can't fly. Yeah. So the thing that I need to do is just say, you know, Fuck it to my sister or whatever. Like, that doesn't matter. I'm just gonna knock this this villain into the pit. Right? Like like You would win the game, but narratively that would annoy me. Yeah. And that just isn't as fun too because, again, it is, like, all about these challenges. You know? It's the challenge of this, like, really intense battle at a freaking lava pit and all of that. Like, there's, like, all of this flare around it. And it's almost kind of ignoring that and just going into, I need to kill this enemy, which again Yeah. Isn't necessarily bad. But if and and like it. I know we keep saying it throughout this entire episode here, but, like, it is so important on that play style because if your GM really, really likes building up narrative encounters, once that have multiple different tickles, and things for you to use in, terrain, that may cause issues for you or may have advantages for you and all of that. And then all you do is, like, instantly knock it out just because you want to get the fight over. It kinda sucks. Like, that just feels bad, especially because Cause I know one of my, friends that I play with had a, group that she ran for that were, I don't know if they're exactly power gamers, but from a lot of the descriptions, it sounded like they were because they would just completely steamroll Every single encounter, get it done as quickly as possible and then kind of make fun of my friend who's GMing. Like, why didn't you make it harder? And it's like, That's, that's where it gets disruptive and is a bad thing. Oh, yeah. Cause I mean, at that point it's like, well, somebody spent. However many Hours trying to get this game ready for you for you to have fun. And Hopefully, you had fun killing it, but if you're complaining or or or I guess goading the DM, it's like, they're a person who Set up this encounter for you to win, first of all. So you're winning the encounter is not, Is not a surprise. Again, we talked about that more in, like, the puzzle making video, but it's like, you want your players to have it for me, personally, I think of it as, like, a 60 The forty rule. I want 60% chance of success every time. Yeah. Right? Like like, I honestly, you could even crank that up. Maybe, like, 70%. 70% chance of success. Yeah. I and I want them to win. It's, like, 70% chance of success, 30% chance of failure. Mhmm. The failure has to be real. There has to be real consequences. Otherwise, again, why are we doing this? However, I do want you to win. So you Winning and gloating about it. Isn't really a flex. That was the intention, Right. Yeah. Like trying to outright kill you and then just, like, start you off with new characters. No. It was to win. We were Cause again, we're all just, we're playing this game to have fun. You having fun means winning encounters. And me having fun is building encounters that challenge you enough to think, but you still win because I am your chi I am your cheerleader. I want you to win. Yeah. Yeah. Because again, it's like once you yeah. The puzzle maker makes this game in your favor. The Part of your GM ing role as the rules arbiter is unfortunately or fortunately, whichever way you look at it, That is who is present at the table running the game is the person trying to make sure everything is quote, unquote fair Mhmm. Right for your players as well as for your monsters or your traps or whatever challenge. But the game has been, like, Weighted on one side, like, heavily by the puzzle making part of the g emerald. But the finger is on the scale, before the start. And then at the table as the referee, you have to be there stoically, Glee, not necessarily, but you have to be there basically stoically handling the rules of the given scenario that you handed yourself. Yep. Or that a module gave to you if you read modules and using counters straight out of the book. But you're you're ruling on that, but the, you know, The game is weighted on your player's side already. Mhmm. That being said, if there are people that are saying that they don't feel particularly challenged, That can be an opportunity for the GM to reflect on what Sort of game and encounters that players are looking for. Yeah. I'd agree. And and you Can improve on encounter design. You can improve on the, you know, the exact nature of, the scenario, Like larger than those single encounter, like the larger scenario of, well, are we just wandering through an Overland forest? Maybe that's not the most Challenging location, or you could, you know, look into other things like, oh, along the way, there's, you know, there's razor vine in these woods, So they have to navigate that. You have to spend hours chopping through, you know, thorns in order to get to this location. You either travel quickly and you take damage or roll against exhaustion or you you cast spells in order to avoid these Trials. That way, once you get to the encounters, you're already fatigued and damaged and running low on supplies, and then you throw, like, 4 more encounters at them in a row. Like, whatever. Using using noncombat, like, complications and encounters is always, I think, a fantastic idea whenever you, like approach creating encounter. Even with my combats, I've had several times where they're able to complete it by not like, like they don't have to beat the enemies. They just could solve this puzzle or do something else that would've Yeah. Helped, you know, you you finish the combat. You finish the encounter because you did the objective. You didn't have to kill everything. Like, there It's like, oh, there's a oh, there's a giant power orb in the center of the arena. Maybe if you attack the power orb, then the electro golem will turn off or whatever. Exactly. Like, it it's interesting things like that. And then, you know, That's where it's fun as, like, a group where it's like, okay. Some people need to fend off this, like, electro golem, and 1 person needs Either 1 person or several people need to start attacking this power orb in the middle than, like, just all of the different moving parts going on at the same time and figuring out where you're going. That's a blast. Please. I want that. Yeah. And and there and and and definitely, like, if your players aren't feeling engaged, that isn't inherently, like, a sign that they are power gaming. However, what I will address in the scenario that you told me about your friend is that at least from the Vibe that I'm getting from it from your retelling is that it feels like the players Like, the players feel like they're beating the game. Yeah. And I think that that is an attitude that is in and of itself, combative. Because if you feel like winning the encounter means that you're beating the GM, that you're winning the game. That is an attitude that is sort of counterproductive to the tabletop RPG scene as a whole. Yes. Because as we said, of course, you won. It was designed that way. Like like, this is a collaborative experience. We're using dice in order you're you're all the all, like, TTRPG people are degenerate gamblers, but we don't have money. So we, so we risk our characters. Right? Like, that's the game. But We risk our characters and our emotions Exactly. Exactly. It's like, why do monetary damage when I can do permanent emotional damage? Exactly. It's more fun that way. Right? Yeah. Yeah, but it's, but it is something that we are doing collaboratively. And if you Want a greater challenge. That's something to talk to your GM about because you're, you know, like, let's say you're bored. You're like, the combats are too simple. I walk up, I whack with a sword a couple of times. It's not working for me. That's something to talk to your GM about. Not just, you know, If if what you're looking for is a challenge, that's a whole other issue. Yep. From, you know, like, oh, I'm so good at the game that I've managed to beat it. And it's like Mhmm. You can be good at the game, and that can assist you for more complicated scenarios. Right? Like, a more experienced GM might ask More of you as a player in order to solve their more complex puzzles that they've, you know, created through experience. You know, they have so much experience doing this that making complicated, engaging puzzles is easier for them. But that is still not winning the game. You win the game when everybody had fun, And, you you can talk about the awesome memories that you've created afterwards. And, you know, somebody bragging about how good at the game they are isn't an awesome memory for anyone. Yeah. Because then it it's Like, there's not anything inherently wrong about it, but it just doesn't feel fun. Like, it's not fun to just hear how good at the game you are. Now it's it's more fun to be like, hey. You know, we just defeated this red dragon altogether, and you did this awesome thing. And I did this and blah blah blah blah blah. Well, because it was there was something that I did wanna, address Yeah. Absolutely. Which was that these sort of issues. Hey, everyone. Welcome to today's episode midpoint. I hope you are all doing well. And if you're enjoying this episode of the RPG Goblin, that to make sure to follow the RPG Goblin wherever you listen to your podcasts and give it a good review. Now for today's midpoint, I wanna say, hey. It is 2024 now. This is the very 1st episode that is releasing in the new year, and it is very exciting. And I have so many things planned for this year that I can't wait for. But one thing that I wanted to mention is at the end of 2023, I hosted a TTRPG party in my Discord server, and it went amazing. And during that party, one of the things that happened is that I announced something, and that is I have a Patreon now. So I created the Patreon because I really want ways that people can support the show and also gain more access to kind of behind the scenes type content and special things like having your name shouted out at the end of episodes and also being able to see some behind the scenes conversations with my guests, which I have a lot of them that I'm really excited to share in the Patreon. And so along with that, I also really wanna host more of these TTRPG parties, And that is one of the things that the lowest tier, the $5 tier of the Patreon will get you get access to special roles within the RPG Goblin Discord that will give you access to any events or anything that we do, and it will also give you access to live TTRPG parties that we are gonna be having every single month. Now I still have to put together the schedule for the TTRPG party for this month, But I'm very excited to do more of these and for more people to join the Patreon and all of that. So if you wanna support the RPG Goblin, you like the show and you like what I'm doing here, and you wanna see me produce more TTRPG content especially, make sure to go check out the Patreon and support if you can. I appreciate any kind of support. Even if you become a member for free and just follow along on what's happening, that would be more than enough, and I would appreciate it so much. Well, because it was there was something that I did wanna, address. Yeah. Absolutely. Which was that these sort of issues lend themselves more to complicated systems, Like like Dungeons and Dragons and Pathfinder, more rules heavy systems. Mhmm. Seem to have more issues with power gaming. Then rules light systems. In my experience, I think that the player base Of rules light systems tend to be more, on the side of, Like, there there's more creative freedom in a rules light system because there aren't rules for everything. And it kind of it kind of forces you to engage with your game master and accept their role as The referee and rules arbiter Mhmm. Where a rules, like, heavy system, a more crunchy system, Put some more responsibility on you as the player to quote unquote, like, be good at the game. Mhmm. Because it's more complicated. Well, and and and and to that effect, like, if you're power gaming, right, like, which is is the subject of the day. If you're power gaming, the way that you are doing it is by taking the rules That are in front of you and finding ways of using the rules of the game to Seed at something else that is according to the rules of the game. Mhmm. And I think that there are so many Scenarios in a tabletop RPG that can't be solved or can't reasonably be solved Mhmm. Or realistically be solved through game mechanics, but could be solved through The basic game loop of I asked to do something. The GM sets a DC. You roll a d twenty. If you roll high, you d get to do it. Mhmm. And I think that That is sort of why there's this disconnect because in a video game, all that you have are the rules that are built into the video game. Yeah. And on a tabletop game, you have infinite rules. The rules are non they're they go on forever. They're they're Because, because there's so many stipulations that you can't have a rule book with every possible thing in it. Right? Like, you can't have every single scenario covered. Just look at look at the nonsense. If you wanna go down a rabbit hole of nonsense, Look up grappling rules throughout the years. Oh. I'm scared. Like, 3rd edition grappling is, like, 4 pages long. Oh my gosh. Are you serious? Look look it up. Like, it's long. I don't know if it was, like, 3 or 4 pages, but it's it's way too long. And so nobody did it. But but but now if you look at 5 e grappling rules, they are so Streamlined that they almost don't make sense. Like, when somebody says I grapple a target, what are they saying that they're doing? Mhmm. Right? Like, What are you physically doing when you're grappling someone is something that the game itself doesn't really have rules for. So Grappling builds end up living in this weird abstract area where they have, like, 1 free hand, and that means that they can grapple it while they attack it. And it's like, Well but what are you, like how are you doing that with your long sword? Like, how physically are you standing that this is Possible. And even if you're really strong, like, giving yourself just 1 hand to grapple would give you a disadvantage even if it, Like, if unless the person's, like, really smaller, like, much weaker than you, do you even, like Even then, like like because grappling is, like, such an effective Thing in, like, medieval, like, martial combat. Like, literally, if you just if you have a chain glove, and you just walk up and grab the other dude's sword, like, what are they gonna do? So, like, it's very effective. And I think one of the problems is that it's almost too effective. Right? And it's so effective that it kind of Breaks down the abstraction to such a degree that it feels more like a video game. Mhmm. But, like, what if your what if your player wants to cover the enemy wizard's mouth? Mhmm. Like, there's no rule in grappling for how to do that. Yes. There can't be. There can't be. That is How dare they not include the option to cover someone's mouth? This is a terrible time to say. What if the creature has 2 mouths? You don't know. Like, there's so many possible what if the creature doesn't have a humanoid body? Mhmm. Right? Like Like, how would you write grappling rules for something that is more like a dog? You know, it doesn't have hands. You can't, like, take it, like, You know, any rule that has to do with, oh, this is something in its hands wouldn't be valid. But, also, like, can you, like, If something has the mouth the size of a crocodile, can you hold it shut with 1 free hand? Mhmm. Maybe? Yeah. I think it would just be much better to just, like, both arms surround the mouth. Like, keep it up close. And that sort of thing is Impossible to write detailed enough rules about that they cover every possible scenario. Yep. But that is something that you can do in a tabletop game that you can't do in a video game. A video game has to live by certain rules Yep. That were programmed in. And so When you are power gaming and you're focusing so much on the rules of the game and how to use the rules of the game, It can end up taking away from the t t r p g experience because you are missing so many out of rule possibilities. Yep. But this is, again, kind of like the dynamic between you and your DM. If you're trying to create or you have fostered Unintentionally, an adversarial relationship between you and your GM. Then you find yourself in an unwinnable battle Where your GM won't grant you any leniency on the things that we can't write rules about because they're worried that that Precedent will be used by the power gamer in order to exploit other rules. Right? It it puts the it puts the GM in this Paralyzing position. Yes. Because you say yes to something. Yeah. It's like, well, I said that you could do this while you were grappling. Ah, yes. Well, if I can do that, then how about this? You know, how what about this what about this thing? And it's like, if it's in the spirit of the game and it seems like everybody's on board with it, Absolutely. You can do that, but it does become very, very messy when somebody who is so invested in the rules of the game That every tool that you give them becomes a way for them to exploit the rules of the game. And, and again, Like a 1000000000 times in this in this conversation, it's like it does depend upon your table and upon what everybody can agree on. And if everybody at your table is Cool with what is happening at your table. That's fine. But these are, I think, common pitfalls that people have is that, Yeah. It's like this, we've created this environment where this person is using the rules to win the game. And that is Maybe not the, the attitude that you want them to have at your table, because you want to have something that's more organic or that's more narratively focused or something that is more, you know, just focused on having fun. Rather than, you know, having to put together this weird Ruben Goldberg machine of doom that they've put together through some Combination of the rules. I I and I I will say that there is also like A big distinction between somebody who's power gaming and somebody who is trying to Break the rules or trying to, like, find an uncharitable, like, reading of the rules that makes their That makes their build work. Right? Where it's me like you're trying to cheat or anything because you are, like, You are wanting to use the rules and how they are written. It's just the way in your advantage, which again isn't a bad thing because they're They're there for a reason. The rules are Yeah. Laid out for a reason. And if you want to follow them like that, and use them to your advantage, go right ahead. But, yeah, then there's Yeah. Eating, which isn't as nice. Yeah. Exactly. Like like, I'm not talking about that. It's it it just, I think again, our gaming finds itself in this weird position. We're designing an adventure around the intentions of someone Who will optimize the fun out of the game leads to your game becoming worse. Mhmm. Like, Having to build the game around somebody who's like, oh, no matter what I throw at them, they're going to find a way to win. Yeah. Not not not a way to have fun. They're gonna find a way to win. Yeah. Find a way to be able to Get out of this trap that you gave them or or instantly beat the monster. Which again, isn't necessarily a bad thing if that's what you wanna do. And I think that's where a lot of this comes down to just, like, communication, like, as a group and between, like, the players and the GM on expectations for the game, your different play styles, and what you actually want to achieve here. Yeah. I think that along those lines, it's kind of like any time that somebody asks you for a skill check. Right? When they ask you for a skill check rather than for a specific thing that they wanna do. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I often throw that back at my players as what is it that you want to do? Like, what is it that you wanna find out? What what are you trying to do is such an important thing to discuss with your GM. Yep. Because, Hey. I want to use the the fact that, you know, that lava does a ton of damage in order to beat this enemy. And it's like, Cool. I can alley oop you. I can set you up for that scenario if we're all on the same page because, again, I want you to succeed. I'm your I'm your partner in this adventure. I'm not your adversary. But what I am gonna do is yeah. But what I am gonna do is I'm gonna Try to set it up in a way that makes sense for my game and doesn't Step on the fun of other people at the table as well. Yeah. So I yeah. I I I think that I think that we probably, like, trod this round well enough, because Overall, I would say min maxers power gamers, whatever. But, like, min maxers Aren't problem players, but most problem players are also min maxers. I would It's probably a good way to Summarize. I would say this. I have definitely seen this come up a few times where there also been problem players that do intentionally make bad characters as well. Like we kinda talked about early, earlier in this episode where it's like, I'm literally going to make a build that doesn't mechanically work in the game where I end up fucking over the rest of my party because of it. And it's I almost feel like it's kind of in the same area as power gaming, but, like, on the opposite end. Like, I'm not gonna make a character that works. Oh, to, like, the opposite Opposite of power gaming where someone's making, they're making a character specifically to be bad. Mhmm. Yeah. The opposite of power gaming, making a character that mechanically is bad and doesn't like, we're basically, you can't do anything and you leave most of the stuff up to everyone else in the party and almost, like, intentionally cause issues because you're not able to succeed in what you're doing. And I don't think this is as common, but I've definitely seen it pop up quite a few times where someone who will intentionally make a bad character because it's like a goof or or or funny. Yeah. Yeah. No. That is that is definitely, I think, as bad of an issue as power gaming, if not worse, because you end up with a similar. You end up with a similar problem where everybody at your table isn't there to do they're not there for the same game. Yep. Right? Like You're not playing the same game. You're being weighted down by this 1 person. Maybe you could have used an extra person at your table who genuinely wanted So play the game. Right. But they, you know, they, this person doesn't want to, Be collaborative with their party. And I think that that Is what that comes down to is like you aren't collaborating with the. You aren't collaborating with your GM because you're making it difficult to build encounters around the fact That you are a, you know, you're, you're, paperweight. Yeah. Right? Especially if you also are someone who just, like, Start conflicts too. Like, if you go out to be like, alright. I'm going to provoke this person and, like, get yourself into trouble on things. It's like, oh, man. This is so stressful. Why are you doing this? I well, I think that that almost Falls under that given scenario, almost falls under, like like, they're poking at the GM Mhmm. Of, like, daring you to kill Tell them. Yeah. Which is something that I I have had issues with players who don't like character death. I haven't had the exact scenario. Fortunately, if somebody. Trying to provoke me into killing their character. But that's what that sounds like to me. It sounds like somebody has built a a character that is designed to die. And they're kind of daring you to kill them. Like, what are you gonna do? Are you gonna ruin my fun by killing my character? And it's like, well, I mean No. I don't want to. But Just said, no. I don't want to, but you should. Like, in that scenario, it's like if they have built a character that is Unable to survive and is causing other problems. Like, that sounds like an out of game problem firsthand. Like, yeah. Sure. Should be a conversation outside. Mhmm. Communication. Like, talk about it. Like, hey. Hold on. Yeah. There might be something wrong here. But if their goal is that, oh, no. I made a character that was really unoptimized. I wanted to see How long they could live? This character is expendable to me. Mhmm. That's fine. That's awesome. Honestly. Like, if somebody came to me and they were like, I fully intend this character to kick the bucket, and it's gonna be very dramatic. Mhmm. But I want them to die. Curtis who was like who'd, like, had, I talked to Curtis, and I think he mentioned something like his, he played a monk where his dumpster was constitution on purpose. And it's like, you know, I would be fine if he died, but, like, that was, like, a personal choice. You know? I just wanted to see what would happen. And this is not to say, like, there's anything bad with having, flaws with characters and having characters be bad at things because I think that's Fantastic. Go for it. It's just it probably shouldn't be, like, the core thing they should be good at. I mean, You know, what really is kind of neat to me is if you very much do have. If you're that sort of person who likes building characters, like you build characters in your spare time, you have a lot of fun with it. One thing that I would Challenge people to do rather than try to optimize their game is try to Optimize their play style with a particular character because kind of what you were saying there is, like, oh, I dumped con. Like right? I dumped constitution. My character is super brittle. If you If you're doing that and you manage to live, I think that is a much bigger flex than actually being a more powerful character is I took this Objectively, like, kind of bad decision. And I made it work anyway because I could use Other things in my toolkit and other things in my knowledge as, as a tabletop game player in order to Not die. Right? Like Stop. It's, like, honestly, anybody who dumps their armor class, I have so much respect for as well. Mhmm. And I've had players that have like, it's become an ongoing joke of high AC is for nerds, because if you manage to maximize your build to like up your armor class to like 25, like that's fine, I guess. You're you're enjoying combat where everyone misses everything all the time. Mhmm. The tension the tension there, I can I can feel it now? But but but I think it is even more impressive to be like, my armor class is 11. And I am not going to die because I'm so aware of the way that the game works. I have such a mastery of the mechanics that I'm like, I will never put myself in a position to get wailed on because I have Misty Step. I can move myself on the high ground 30 feet away. And then I can, you know, I don't know, cast expeditious retreat and move far enough away that I can just pelt things with firebolts from here. Yeah. I like that. I can weasel my way out of any scenario. Like if you're a wizard it's especially like, Like, at least to me, pretty, like, clear how you could do this, because there's so many ways to stall through, like, if you're doing, what is it? Mirror image, you can multiply yourself, make it harder to hit. You could cast blink, make yourself harder to To hit more enigmatic. Yeah. You could cast invisibility, and move away. Right? Like, there's a lot of Things that you can do to be like, yeah. I built this character that is, you know, super unoptimized, but I promise you all that won't be a problem. Yeah. Exactly. Like, there's cool things when you make an unoptimized build as long as it's intentional that it's gonna be fun for you and you have a plan with it. Like I think that's the best part and that's a cool thing as well as I feel like if I was a player in a group or even a GM, If someone came to me with a really strange build and, like, okay. Just believe me on this. I'm like, alright. And they make it work. Hell, yeah. No. I love that. Like and I love how you phrase it as well. Like, make a character optimized to your play style versus make it optimized to what, You know, I guess the main number would be yeah. Exactly. Ticks in tabletop games is kind of toxic. It's like, well, because it's like, oh, how do you how do you beat your enemy? It's like, well, bigger number. I it's why I'm not a Huge fan of, systems getting to the big number territory where it's like, oh, I do a 105 damage. And then I, You know, reduce the you know, they reduce that by 71 or whatever. Like, I'm not super into the huge numbers because I don't think that it actually, It doesn't add tension. It just makes all of the numbers bigger. Yeah. Because when your numbers get bigger, the enemy numbers get bigger. Like that's, That's what happens. So, the numbers being bigger, just kind of provokes bigger numbers on the opposing side of the of of the combat. Yeah. And that's actually it it's not, like, it's not even, like, a huge change, but that's why, like roll under D 20 systems kind of make me happy or any system that's roll under. Because it almost makes you think of numbers friendly. Like, it's not the big number. The big number's bad. The big number's going to kill you. Yeah. Because I think, the Conan RPG does that as well as, What is it? Isn't it the white box has it basically any check that you need to do in white box, you have to roll below your ability score in order to succeed. I I think that it's the white box that does that. It might be a different one. One of the many OSR games out there. But, yeah, I I think that the, The the idea of, like, oh, I can maximize this character to do the biggest numbers is, like, you're almost cheating yourself self out of one of the the bigger joys of the tabletop RPG space, which is the, you know, the amount of creativity and and Different ways that you can interact with given scenarios. Mhmm. So I I would personally love to see more of that As far as if you're gonna power a game, like, can you find ways to keep the game fun and entertaining for yourself without Taking away anybody else's fun by making your character so good that you accelerate the big number arms race. Mhmm. Yeah. So Yeah. It's a fair it is a fairly new nuanced topic. And I I think it's important to lean on the fact that, like, it really isn't power gaming as most people talk about it, unless You are creating some sort of unfair advantage for yourself Mhmm. Because then you're just good at the game. If it doesn't become If it doesn't become an issue, then you're probably not doing it. Right? Like you're not doing the it's not a problem if, if, if everyone's doing it. But, it's not a problem if, it's not a problem unless it's becoming disruptive, but the behavior of winning the game or building your characters to win the game or to accelerate bigger numbers better can lead you down a rabbit hole where You are pausing the other people at the table, whether that's the GM alone or the GM and the other players To have a worse experience. So Yeah. I don't think it's I don't think any of that got brought up in That. Well, I know it didn't, because I I watched it, yesterday to review. That they didn't bring up any of that as, like, A point in that 1 video that I watched that kind of spurred my entire, like, thought process in this direction is, like, They were all basically just talking about power gaming, like, that implies that you're just using the rules to your benefit. And it's, like, Yes. That is the case, but that isn't entirely what most people mean when they're talking about it as an issue. Exactly. Yeah. Like, you wouldn't be talking about it if it wasn't a problem for anyone ever. Exactly. And and that's where I I also do appreciate you defining, like, what you meant by power gaming too at the beginning. You know, this is exactly what we're gonna be talking about and also being clear. You know, it is it is up to the groups and the play styles. And as long as people are having fun, That is the most important thing. If you are power gaming, having fun, great for you. Good for you. Awesome time. But no. I think this has been Fantastic. And I think almost, like, in my head, kind of the moral of the story, just talk with your group. Just communicate. I mean Like I mean, honestly, isn't that, like, 90% of every, like, forum post on Reddit that complains about, oh, my players this, my my GM that. It's like, Just if you all just talked to each other about what was the problem, what was the issue at hand, this wouldn't be an issue. Like it's straight up just communication because it's a collaborative game. Everybody has to Everybody has to work together to tell the stories that we tell and play the game that we're playing because there are So many possibilities that maybe your ex if your expectations don't align, then you're going to That that is where you're gonna create this friction Mhmm. Between players, 1 player versus another player, or player versus their GM, or Any combination thereof is is when anybody has an expectation of what is happening that doesn't match Everybody else's expectations of what is happening. Exactly. And so just communicate with your group, please. Thank you. Thank you and good night. Thank you. No. But, yeah, I think though that's Probably the end here. Like, I think we covered a lot. If you have things to add to the conversation, You know, maybe, I'll make a post on Twitter or you can comment on stuff on Twitter. Do that. That'd be cool. And also I guess this Could be a cool way to promote the fact that I have a discord now for the RPG goblin. I've had one for a while, but now it's open to the public. So if you wanna talk about power gaming with me or with Zachariah or any of the other cool people that we have in the discord, that's gonna be open, and you can find that, in the description of this episode. Yeah. At me. Yeah. Do it. Zachariah is always prepared to talk about TTRPs. Yeah. No. I I love it. But, yeah, I think we are gonna end this here. But before we do, one final time, Zachariah, where can people find you and your awesome content? On DMs Guild. So that's dmsguild.com. And if you go into the search bar and you look up Zachariah, z a k a r I a h, and you search that. All of the results that come up are things that are authored by me, And you can just scroll through and download all of them. If any of them have a like suggested pay, amount on them, you can just fill that in with 0. There is not a single thing that I put up there that is, that you can't download for free. Like, they are all available for free. So Go ahead and get you some get you some content. Exactly. Fun new content to add to your games or even interpret and bring into other games, which is Uh-huh. Really, really fun. But, yeah, thank you, thank you everyone for listening, and thank you again, Zachariah, for coming on and talking with me. Again, the link for, Zachary's, DMs Guild will be in the description of this episode, so you can check it out down there. But yeah, we are going to wrap it up. Go make sure to check out the discord. Come join and hang out with us and check out Zachariah. And, yeah. Play more games and have a good time question mark. But, yeah, this is the end. Thank