AfterGlow - Do You Change The World Back or Keep It?

Today on the RPG Goblin I bring on Steph from Fistful of Crits to talk about her game AfterGlow! A Solo or Duel player game where you play acolytes in a world that has been changed. All you know is that the temple was cleaved in two, the gods are gone, the wizard looms, and the the sun never sets since the Afterglow happened.

Not only do we talk about this beautiful game but Steph and I talk a lot about solo journaling games and how they work, what games and designers inspire Steph, share some of our favorite TTRPGs and just have some really awesome TTRPG conversations throughout the episode that you shouldn't miss!

Check out AfterGlow here: https://fistfulofcrits.co.uk/products/afterglow-physical-edition

https://fistful-of-crits.itch.io/afterglow

Follow Steph and Fistful of Crits on socials!

https://twitter.com/freyalygil

https://twitter.com/fistfulofcrits

https://www.threads.net/@fistfulofcrits

https://www.instagram.com/fistfulofcrits/

Transcript

0:00

Welcome everyone to the RPG Goblin, a TTRPG exploration podcast slash podcast where people can just talk about their favorite games because that's just the coolest thing. I am your host and resident goblin, Willow and I, you know, run this podcast. I ask all the questions. I'm a little obsessed, and we've literally been recording for almost an hour before this because we've just been talking about games. So this is it it'll be great episode today. It today we are going to be talking about Afterglow with the creator Steph, and I am very excited about this because I've been following along, this game getting, like, made throughout, like, my time on Twitter. And it's done and it's beautiful and it's gorgeous and you'll get to see it on video here. And if you're listening via audio, you should go check it out. But let me give the floor over to Steph to introduce who she is, where you can find her and see Afterglow and all of that cool stuff. So, Steph, go ahead. Hello. Thank you for having me on, first of all. It's been a great, first hour of talking. You'd be very fun to talk to, so thank you. Absolutely. I'm Steph. I am a UK, based Artist, designer, game designer, that sort of thing. And then part time, I have a little marketing job. Fun. You can find me on Twitter as Freya Lygel, and Fistful Crits, which is my business account, and then also threads in Instagram as Fistful Crits. I'm not brave enough for TikTok yet. I'll get to that next year. I I I think I think you need to go to TikTok, show everyone how cool the book is and and you'll get instantly popular. I think it'll be great. It's a fantastic idea. I I watch a lot of them. I making 1 frightens me. I am 30. Yes. No. I'm in my thirties. You you will be fine. You will you will do great. You you come across on camera super well. You you are very entertaining. I think you'll be awesome. I know I've been I've been wanting to get on TikTok a bit too as well. It's like, oh, man. I wanna talk about games, then it's like short form I'm bad at short form content. If you can't tell, I mean, my episodes are usually almost 2 hours long. I I am bad at keeping things short because I just wanna talk. Yeah. But all of those links for, Stefan where you can find her will be in the description of the episode just to have ease of finding, her and all of that fun stuff, but we are talking about Afterglow today. But, before we fully get into that, I I want to ask you a question beforehand just to kind of get a taste of some of your TTRPG experiences and such. And I'd love to ask, like, what are some of your favorite games and games that have actually influenced, your design. Because I know we've kind of been talking about, your TTRPG experience beforehand, which you guys can, I guess, check out on Patreon question mark? But Yes. Yeah. But I I would love to actually hear about some of your favorite games and especially ones that have influenced, you're designing process with TTRPGs. Excuse me. Sure. Yes. So I I love Graphically striking games. And I think the the game for me that takes the crown of that is is Morgorg. Oh, for sure. It it's I remember seeing it at a convention and going, oh, that yellow is yellow. Yeah. It's a little intense. It's What's that about? And, you know, the occasional metal head to myself. Mhmm. OSR sort of fan picked up and went, I must have. So a lot of those zines, more bog zines I have on my shelf from various designers. Chris Bissett is is my favorite the designer, actually. Just graphically striking games like that. I think in terms of design philosophies, Blades in the Dark and systems around, you know, dice pools, narrative forward facing rule sets, things like that. I'm looking at my shelf up here with what else I have. No. I feel that. It's like anytime that someone's like, what games have you played? Let me look at the shelves. I mean, all of them. I have so many beautiful indie games, that that give me lots of different sources of inspiration. I I was just talking to you about Orchard Delirium, by EtherCorp, which is visually a stunning, piece of artwork, as well as just a really fun and engaging different sort of game. I will shout about Luke's work from the because, he does just really fascinating stuff. Mhmm. And then also Fari RPGs who actually kind of wrote Firelights and the SRD that Afterglow is based off. Pandion Games. I really love Andy's approach to, like, narrative tension without violence. I think that's really important in in certain types of gaming group flow. Oh, I I agree. Yeah. It's it's more about collaborative teamwork. I think he's just released this is just me, like, shouting out all the game. Absolutely. Yeah. In Badger, Badger and Coyote, which is like a 2 2 player game of, like, collaboration, and then we They did, Bandas grove. Right? Correct. Yes. I really love Bandas. It's it's going under some design new work at the moment, I think. I actually designed a supplement for Banders in the jam That's cool. Last year, I wanna say. So, yeah, I I think it's really cool. I mean, another person even, Hainikoto, the Miru series is just really amazing as well. Mhmm. Procedural map generated adventure where you kill a cyborg god. Like, yeah. I have never heard of this. Oh, that's amazing. I'm going to Mirio because, again, one of my favorite indie game series. I've nearly finished, my playthrough of Miro 2. Mhmm. So, yeah, I think, like, games that particularly are made by people who have different design philosophies to me are quite interesting. I'm new to designing games, so I'm still figuring out what mine is. I haven't made my own system yet. That is on the card for 2024. Oh, that's so exciting. Yes. I'm turning toe beans, away from 5 e, and I'm making it, its own system where you manage a magical cafe of cats. Okay. I love that. That's so cute. Yes. Magical cat cafe for the win. Yep. Cozy cozy journaling games. Yes. So yes. We love those in this house. No. I I love that. And I'm I'm curious. You mentioned that, like, blades in the dark is, like, one that you you like the design philosophy around it. And I mentioned and you mentioned, like, that you're gonna be starting to play, like, quartz of blades and stuff like that. Like, would you say that, forged in the dark is a system that specifically, like, kind of, sticks out for you? Because you've you've mentioned that one a few times. Yeah. I think so we were having a discussion pre episode about everyone has the the game that clicks with them. Mhmm. And I think Blades in the dark for me is such an interesting system because while I'm not I'm I'm not a huge fan of the setting, like, dust fall Mhmm. I really, really love the ease of the mechanics, the flashback stuff is really interesting. Stuff is fantastic. It's So good. But then also, it's a very high risk, high reward system. Mhmm. So when I play blades, I have a group of friends that I play with. The running joke is that we don't play blades unless a boat gets set on fire because we are always running boats on fire. But, yeah, the the dice pool mechanics, I think in blades are very interesting to me, where you can push yourself. Devil's Bargain with the GM is really cool. I really like I know that there's a lot of conversation right now about, stress and trauma mechanics in games and and sort of their place in them. But I think if you're playing a game with safety tools and with people that you know are gonna that that sort of thing. It is a really interesting mechanic for me, personally, to add, you know, to build upon your character's story, really. Blades is a system that that always sticks out to me, and I think eventually I would like to try and make a hack of it. Yeah. That would be awesome. Yeah. But the Court of Blades is interesting because it's a hack of blades. Mhmm. I said before, you know, the designers are super super lovely, and it's very richly a setting that I would enjoy running, I think. I love that. Yeah. I mean, setting does matter. I like how you said that about blade. Like, you're not you're not a super big fan of, like, the dust ball setting in general, but, like, then everything else that comes with it because I actually think that the dust ball setting is some is one of the reasons that kinda got me into like, got me interested in blades. But, like, I yeah. I I just the the way that they they kinda set it out, like, initially, like, in the book when you read it and open it up and they, like, describe the whole thing of, like, the wall of blood or or the wall of lightning powered by demon's blood and, like, the gritty industrial feel. Like, that's something that definitely kinda clicks with me. But I love that having, like, those other, supplements like cord of blades, I know scum and villainy, things like that, other other settings that you can connect quicker than still enjoy the system because it's definitely it it is a very, very beautiful system that I I do hope to play one day. I've only played World of Blades, which is just really simplified version because it's like, I wanna play 1 shot, and I don't wanna go through all of us set up and play blades are dark. I haven't played I haven't properly played a blades game yet. It's it's it's upsetting. I've like I said, I've played world of blades, which is very simplified, but not actually. Oh, no. Okay. When when I next run a game, I would love to have you come in because, blades is such a good system. Yeah. No. That would be awesome. No. I would be down for that. I've been really wanting to play it since, like, I read it, like, last year around, like, the end of, like, when we got hit by, the hurricane. Like, it was Vason and Blades were, like, the 2 books that I was reading during that time because we didn't have, like, Internet because it, like, all got, hit by the hurricane, so it was all down and stuff. So it's like, okay. I'll just read TTRPG books, and that was, like, last time You got in on the on the pre hype for Vason, because you cannot pick a copy of that up at the moment. Oh, really? No. I I've had Vason I've I've had Mason for a while since that's another one that's just instantly clicked in my mind of, like, this is a beautiful game. It's probably one of the my favorite books on my shelf just visually and, like, feeling wise, it's I love free league publishing, but I I I've yet to pick it up, but, it is on my list. It it is it is gorgeous. It is one of my favorite bestiaries and, like, the way that the monsters work, I love it so much. I I'm hoping to do an episode on very soon too. But we are going to be talking about Afterglow today, and I actually I I love that we talk about these these games that have giving you some inspiration that you love too because I think that's a that's something that I wanna start asking designers more because I think it's it's interesting to hear your perspective of, you know, the games that have clicked with you, because I think that can show where some of your decisions design wise, can come in with your actual games. And so with Afterglow, I would love if you know, kind of start this out. Could you give kind of the elevator pitch for Afterglow? You know, give a brief description of, like, what the game is and then we'll, like, dive in deeper. But just for everyone at home who doesn't know what it is and all that stuff, can you give us an elevator pitch? I'm really bad at this. I'm You're good. See, we're not actually in an elevator. You can have a little extra time. So playing some music. I made Afterglow. A wizard basically ruins the world. Okay? And I I made Afterglow as an exploration into whether or not if you have the chance, you would keep the world as it was or return it back to what it was before you knew it. And so you get the choice. And you and I I've I've kind of laid down a mild setting, but, yeah, I think in the opening part of the book, what was really important to me was the person playing was able to to put their stamp on it because that's part of the fun for me as as a person that plays a lot of these sorts of games. Mhmm. And so I've created the rules, for the setting that you can then expand upon. One of those is, would you return the glow or not? And that could change through your play. The the villain of the game because I did want it to feel very like, it had a beginning and a middle and an end. You get to decide what their motivations were as well. Yeah. And whether they they were, you know, road to hell is paved in good intentions or if they are just like the evil BBEG. Mhmm. So my elevator pitch, I think, would be, Do you want to play a journaling game that you could also play with a friend? Do you want to kill a wizard? Do you wanna kill a wizard? Even what is the wizard? Because I don't ever specify, and I think that's that's kind of fun. I remember I posted, the back page on Twitter, which I think is, it started when a wizard cleaved apart the temple into 2 Yes. And someone was like, go hard or go home, And I was like, no. Absolutely. I mean Yeah. I mean, just like what we were saying with, blades, like, something that kinda grasped me was, like, kind of that introduction where it's like you you kinda set the scene there. That was another one that got me too. It's like, you know, the the wizard cleaves cleaves it in half. It's like, oh, shit. Like and it it it kinda it gives you that moment like shit got real when you, like, just started the game, and so it does really help set that tone. I like it a lot. I wanted to, establish, Because for me, like, in any game that I've played, if I'm told this is the setting and you cannot deviate from it, I'm like, boring. Yeah. Like we were talking before, like, but what about ducks? Yeah. Yeah. What about dogs? I wanted to kind of write it so that it had some structure. But Yeah. At any point in time, if it didn't serve you, you could throw it away. Just enough structure to have an idea, but not enough structure to, like, box you into to this is the only story. This is the only thing that you can go through. I like that a lot. That's Yeah. I mean, I one of my favorite games right now is land of Eem, and what something that I love about it is that it gives you it gives you a lot of structure. It's basically like the muppets meets lord of the rings, and it gives you a lot more Is Michael Caine in this one? Like, temporary? Unfortunately, not. Yeah. It's it's the Muppets meets Lord of the Rings, and it's basically just this really whimsical, like, world that's, like, like, mystical, like, fantasy and stuff like that, but, like, really goofy. Like, you can play as frog people and whale people and bird people all in all and, like, even, like, kinda like a muppet type person and you are in, like, it's real dungeoning and all of these different things. And so it's like there's there's gloom there and there's, like, destruction, but it's like this whimsical, like, version of it. It's really, really cute. I you have to link me to this. I I absolutely will. It's it's Yeah. I'm still I I have the PDFs of the game. I haven't gotten the actual print copies yet. I backed it on backer kit, like, summer of last year, and I love it so much it makes me happy. But, like, it it does a lot of the stuff of, like, kind of setting the tone for the game, but Yeah. It leaves so much open that you can make it your own, and that's that's something I've been really appreciating more and more with TTRPGs more I've been getting into them. And so, like, you you saying, like, yeah, I don't wanna set that much up beforehand, I think, really connects with me. And I'm I'm curious, though, of, like, what gave you the idea even for that, you know, story setting idea of, like, the wizard cleaves the temple in half. Like, what's the story behind that? I have this fascination in in the way that I approach stories with, how we approach the concept of good versus evil and magic versus technology. And I love you know, I think I made a a a D and D supplement called Firefall that was about sort of, a star festival and celestial bodies and things like that. Cool. So I kind of wanted to float the idea of a world that was completely fantasy, if you wanted it to be, but it had this dichotomy of what you could consider good and Mhmm. Like, I I was nervous in the design approach, you know, that people would think if you play a Dorn Kavi, you play as a good person, and if you play a Nightweaver, you play as Bad person. Yeah. No. Like, you can flip that on your head. You get to decide what that is. You you even get to decide what the relationship, is between the gods or was. Were they friends or lovers or enemies? These are all kind of questions that I post to you really early on, in the document. But I think I really I really love the idea in narrative stories of gods being a force in the world. I think, I've never you know, I'm not religious. I don't come from a a religious background. I'm pagan, actually. But I really like the idea that if you knew that the gods actually existed and that they had influence over you, what would society look like, and what would the fallout from that be if they left? Yes, like, all of the things you just said is something I also really love in storytelling. Like, the the good and evil and and what evil means and, like, bad and all of that and if it is also truly bad and, like, the different perceptions that you can have on that and god's having, like, an actual like like, they are a force in the world. That's actually in my 1st D and D game that I, like, land, like, my homebrew game. Like, I made a path beyond just because I wanted to play around with God's actually, like, affecting the world and kinda how that would work. So, like, all of these like, everything you just said, like, has been, like, lighting sparks in my brain of like, yes. I love that. I love that. I love that. Yeah. I mean, I think that that's Neil Gaiman's fault, because I think one of my very, very formative experiences with comics was reading the Sandman. And Oh, yeah. I've heard of it. You must read it. It is essential, essential storytelling. But, like, they the characters in there have aspects of, like, death it's a dream and destiny. Yeah. And they have an an effect on on the mortal world. And I think, you know, with Afterglow, I wanted to kinda take some of that flavoring. I think also, another inspiration is Ursula Le Guin. Her approach storytelling is just fantastic. Particularly, she does sci fi and fantasy, both in knockout stellar, you know, Books, book angles that she kinda takes to, but, just her fantasy work is really rich and really introspective. And Afterglow is one of those things, but I it doesn't lead to that mysticism of the unknown and the the bit that you can quantify Fine. You can't quantify and how you interpret that is really interesting to me in a design way, in a storytelling way. Yeah. Absolutely. I think that's half the fun with journaling games. Mhmm. Because I I had a friend recently. She's just sort of getting into into journaling games. She's like, but I don't understand the point because I can just write a story. And I'm like, yes. But Take take the control from away from you and put it to an engine like a game. And how will that change your storytelling? Exactly. And that's that's what I love about journaling games. I've never been someone to really write, but journaling games and and TTRPGs in general, though, actually give me inspiration to do that because there are those unknown forces of, like, I I I can't control all of this. I don't know what's gonna happen the next session of my monster of the week game. I'm like, I I could write the story of, like, you know, the my whole monster of the week game, but it wouldn't be as interesting as Yeah. Giving it in the hands of my players and, like, okay, what are you guys doing and how do you change the story and change the world? And so, like, yes. I I I I agree with the same thing. Like, it's it's a very interesting experience because you it's about to have that control. Yeah. You don't have it, and then then, like, getting the prompts as well, especially I I've seen quite a few, solo journaling games where just the prompts alone, I start getting ideas from it because it's like these are just really these are just so good. Like, they just immediately spark ideas and maybe you wouldn't have even thought about them and then the different ways that you can interpret them even better. I love it. Yeah. I mean, it's I so I I playtested this with my sister in the summer, and it didn't work. And I was like, oh Oh, no. This is why you do it. Yeah. It it works now. And I've started doing my own playthrough. And what I found was my card draws were terrible. So I had an idea of how I wanted the story to go. It has not gone that way. And I'm playing both books, exchangeable 2 characters. And the Dawn Carver at the moment had an idea of of what she wanted to do and has been ambushed and has nearly died. I just had to leave a message for her friend, and now I've swapped Playbook for her friend to come and find her. That was not where I thought that was gonna go, but there it goes. You know? And it will be a richer, more complicated story for it because I think sometimes writers will know this. Your 1st draft is not the best. And with journaling games, I really love that it and, you know, playing narrative games with your friends, it introduces the what if, the the Mhmm. Now this happens, how are you responding to it sort of thing. Yeah. Because I also have that mindset. I I like to write. And initially, when I picked up, The Sealed Library by Matt Sanders of the Seals Library. And I was like, well, I could just write this story. Then I played the game. Not like this, though. Yeah. It's just the emotional roller coaster it was. Yeah. I think we as humans, particularly, if you're not used to writing, a lot can just fall into the same narrative patterns. And what I love about indie game engines for for solo or cooperative like Afterglow, it just introduces a bit of a stone. Yeah. And how you pivot and how you respond to that will actually help you as a writer and you as a gamer. Exactly. Yes. It helps expand your create not even your creativity, but, like, the way that you can even you know, what's your initial ideas? Like, I guess that's creativity, but it's even improv too because it's like especially if you're playing a game in the moment. I love running my games was mostly doing improv. I will do, like, a big like, I'll do a big chunk of prep at the beginning of, like, an arc or whatever and then, like, go through the rest of it without writing anything else because I think that's that makes my brain, like, happy, if that makes sense, like, that's where it engages my brain of, like, I can you are presenting me situations that then I have to react too and I get to try and stretch my creativity and and my skills as a GM that way, and I think that's really fun. And that's something I've really loved about, the solo journaling games too is that that's a really good way to practice that without having to be, like, in a full game because it can be hard to arrange like, hey, friends. You wanna play, like, 6 games a week and, so that I can really, like But then you also, like, have this beautiful record of what you've done. Yes. Which as I have notebooks notebooks and notebooks of games that I've played. As a note taker in, like, normal TTRPG games, both as a player and a GM, that makes me insanely happy. Yeah. I mean, I my approach to GM ing is is mostly improv. If any of my group are watching this. Hi. And and watching. Yeah. So I I will I say this to them all the time. Like, what they do in the world that we've made together Mhmm. Is what interests me. Like, if I want to just go and write the story of our game, I could do that. Fine. Exactly. There have been so many pivotal moments where I've gone, wait. What? Mhmm. Oh, that's really cool. And I will go and build something. So I build set pieces, not narrative. And I think a lot of improv an improv skill is very important in game design and also just running and being in games, and I think solo journaling is absolutely the thing that will prep you for that. Oh, for sure. And and at least for me, I've even used it as practice because I've always been I always haven't been the best at describing scenes and stuff like that and a big thing I think is, like, I've never been a huge reader. I like, especially when it comes to, fiction books, I I've basically been a nonfiction reader, like, my entire life and what's been I know. It it surprises a lot of people. I've never been a reader and it's always it's been really interesting with, like, the TTRPGs PR reviews specifically because, for me, it's a great way for me to experience fiction, like, media through a nonfiction lens because I can read so interesting. Yeah. I love reading through TTRPG books so much and I like reading through, like, the examples of play that they give and, like, the world building. That's why for, like, blades, that's something that, like, I love this because it's like, oh, they're giving me this whole setting, but it's not like an actual story. It's I'm gonna read about mechanics later. Like, this is gonna be great, but I have that whole idea of the setting. It, like, helps me, like, tie it in with, like, game and all of that, I love that. It's so cool. Yeah. I think a lot of the people that I know in the industry are big readers. Yeah. Myself included, although I've just been stuck, in France with Alexandre Dumas this year. That's all I've done. Musketeers. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with that because I'm gonna run a Call of Blades campaign that's Exactly. It's it's it's research. It's research. It's fine. But if you if you forced me to sit down and read nonfiction, I would cry, whereas my business partner is Logan. He was the other half of of this. He he reads technical manuals for fun, and I'm like, what? How? No. It it's interesting on different break like, I I I think part of it is that, like, I I know I know there's, there's a thing with basically, some people can imagine things in their head and some people can't. And I'm someone who can't imagine that? I I don't know what it's called, but, I know it's it is a phenomenon. I can't imagine anything in my head. Like, I can't pick I can't think of an apple and see an apple. And for me that's something that I've always struggled with with reading fiction books is that I've never been able to really pick up, like, they can be describing this whole seen and it means nothing to me because, like, I can't really imagine it and it doesn't really capture me. Then when I'm reading nonfiction, I can I can I can put those ideas to actual things? Like, I I can You can talk to them. Yeah. I I can connect that better in my head, so it's like, okay. This is what connects with me and especially with TTRPGs that's been even better because it's, like, I get to read about mechanics and I can think about, like, not even imagine, but think about. Like, I I just think mostly. I just think about how that can work. Yeah. I know. Recommend you. I can't remember the full name off the top of my head. I will link it to you. But it's basically a setting for it's a system neutral setting Mhmm. In a city that's always raining. That's beautiful. It is so in-depth and Mhmm. So cool. And I picked up from, an indie seller in Germany, And I was like, I wanna write something like this one day where it's just no mechanics. It's just, like, hardcore all the vibe setting. World building. I think you really like it. I will I can't remember. Is it, like, everything in the rainy city? I'll find a few because I think you'd really like yeah, this is gonna end with both of us just linking games back and forth. I'm so excited. I am dangerous. I'm so dangerous for people's wallets I'm like, oh, you should play this, you should play this. I love it. This is great. Yeah. No. I I I always find it really interesting to actually talk to people about, like that's why I really like getting into, like, introduction into these games and, like, the media and stuff like that that connects with people, because it is so interesting. Because I know that my perspective is so different compared to a lot of different people. People so cool, though. People. Like Yeah. How people approach things differently, particularly in a gaming space, And to have a game that you can find, you know, your particular pleasure in. Yeah. So there's, like we were saying before, like, there's people that are, like, dead rules heavy. Mhmm. There's people that, you know, preferred, like, just setting and vibe, and then there's people in the middle who can kind of, you know, do a bit of everything. I think it's I think it's great. You know, the more varied approaches we have to games and game design, I think, is is more more the merrier. You know? Exactly. And I think that's a I mean, off of that is even, like, play style too and how the way that you've been introduced into these games can change your play style and and Mhmm. And it's so good to play with groups that, like, match together. Like, if you can find a group that you have matching play styles, it is, like, the best thing in the world. Because I know for me, like no. I am I am super into the storytelling and and piecing things together of, like, how the different actions in the games work out, and so I'm super into, like, the storytelling and the RP and stuff like that. And so when it comes to just, like, a more rule, like when it comes to people who are super into the rules and don't really wanna get into those aspects of the game and wanna play like, oh, no. Let's clear out a dungeon. That's really fun. I wanna try that someday. I wanna run a game like that someday just to see how it would go, but that's not something for me that I would be running a longer term game of because that's not what really connects and and and where my play style is personally. So I always find it really fun to think about that of, like, how all these different elements changes how everyone plays these games and and how you can enjoy your own personal games and all of this stuff. I love it. That's the thing. One of the challenges that I came up against when I was first writing for D and D was. So I, I prefer improv. And so when I'm running a module book, which I don't do now because I just don't find it very fun, but somebody would be like, I do this, and you have to be like yeah. Flip through whatever. And then they're so badly laid out too, and so it's really hard to find the information unless you, like, clicked beforehand, and it's like, You're also designing for a table you don't know. So one of the first hurdles that I was coming up against, even just for D and D, which is, I I think, a very easy system to write for, was Mhmm. What level should I start these monsters for? How Yeah. How how does encounter balancing in fact work, when you don't know who your players are? Lucy Guisidas. Yep. And you have to trust that people will take what you've done and add their flair to it. Mhmm. And so one of the fun things with ToeBeans that then gave me the confidence was, like, the breathing and afterglow is I've had people come up to me and be like, Oh, yeah. I put toe beans in curse of Strahd, and I'm like, you did what? How did that work, for you. And tell me all about that. I'm just interested. They didn't even put it in a D and D world. They put it in an iron swan game. I was like, sick. Actually, actually Actually Yeah. Yeah. I think I think I've watched the review on our website Because I was like, that's cool. What what what is what is the one called where it's like an iron sworn it's an iron sworn, oh god, what's the word, hack, but it's like a cozy Stardew Valley type game. It's like iron farm or I I can't remember the exact same thing. But that's fun. Yeah. No. It's really fun, and I think that would be, like, perfect. Like, okay. You're still being mystical. Honestly, I I was like, what? Publish the review. Okay. That's great. Thank you. But I think the people think that you have to, like, release a game and have it be, like, definitive. This is this is what I said. No. You don't. Yeah. So I I've picked through Afterglow post release and gone, maybe I could have been a bit clearer about this or this. Mhmm. But then you just have to trust that the person that's reading it kind of it's okay with going, well, I'm gonna decide that it's this. Yeah. And I'll I'll interpret it this way, which I think is always fun. I like I like playing games and interpreting rules in the ways that I want to because I think you can create because, again, it is it is a table to table experience. Like maybe these these rules work this way really well for a table that's super into let's just kill a monster, and maybe these rules need to be slightly changed for if hey. Let's let's talk about our let's let's flirt in in a Victorian era and and, like, all of that, like, you know, you gotta change it up, which those would be probably 2 different games, but that's the tourist industry. Yeah. I I just like thinking about these types of things in games a lot, and I think that's definitely where my my pleasure in TTRPGs come from. I know a lot of people, like, get really into the writing and and world building and stuff like that, but for me, I just love thinking about them and thinking about, like, how does this work? How would a a group of these types of players function in a, I don't know, apocalypse keys game, which I swear I wouldn't play that game so bad and I need, like, a very specific group for it. It's a beautiful game. Oh, yeah. I've got a few games on my shelf like that. Blue new beard, white. Oh, yes. I've heard that one. Yeah. The loads of different I mean, I'm looking at my shelf now. Like, one of my We just need to have, like, a t t r p d book club where it's like, here's all the games and here's how ideally, here's, like, what kind of group I would want and, like, going through, like, here's here's here's how I would want to play with this game. Because, like, that's my favorite thing. That's why I love being a GM. Like, I know people sometimes are like, oh, man. I'm a forever GM. Boo. But, like, I love it so much. No. I love watching. Yes. Me too. I love I love I love playing Mhmm. But DMing is is is where I get my kicks. Yeah. Same. And that's why I've, you know, been a DM for 3 years with the same group. They've chained me to the table. You have no other choice. Yeah. I love that. But thankfully, I'm getting into a lot of, like, online groups where we're playing lots of different things. So I played, like, Cyborg recently, which is fun. Wonder Home, we're doing a play by post. Literally, as soon as I wrap interview up. I've gotta go and help them worldbuild, a little So exciting. Yeah. Game wise. Games, which I I just I I love. And so I would love to get into actually, like, playing Afterglow and how Cool. That works since you've mentioned so, you know, it is a journaling game. It is a solo or a cooperative up to 2 players. Right? Yeah. So, Afterglow is based on a system by Fari RPGs, and Mhmm. Renegade is just the sweetest bean ever. When I was first getting into game design, I was kinda searching like, okay. I know you can hack systems, and I think I just need something that clicks with me that I can kind of fit a vibe to, and I came across, Breathless, which is a a quick d six system. I think originally, he pitched it as, like, a zombie apocalypse game, and I turned it into dark academia house of leaves. Of course. Statue of the game. Yeah. But what I love about Faerie RPG systems is, one, he's so generous with mechanics. Like, he will make a beautiful game and then throw up the SRD and be like, have fun. And it's kinda taught me game design. Yeah. He's probably made, like, 2 games from the from his systems. Mhmm. Picking them apart and and kinda looking through a beautifully presented SRD. I'm like, oh, okay. I kind of view him, Pandion, and Matt Sanders as, like, the TTRPG's big brothers, well, if you if you have a question, they will, like, answer it for you. Yeah. And so I made a process. Mhmm. I made a game called the breathing. It's really funny because it looks totally different to, like, any vibe. And at conventions, people are like, who did your business partner make this? I'm like, no. Me. But then he released Firelights, which was, like, originally, a really small kind of, DL sized pamphlet Metroidvania game where you have 3 stats, And you kind of explore through the world, so, like, a generative map system. Yeah. Also, it kinda reminds me of maybe Rune a little bit Guila RPG? Guila. Yeah. Guila's work is is beautiful. I, at the time, was playing Miru by Hinokoto. Hi, Makoto. I never know if I'm saying that right. I know if you ever watched this, please let me know. But, so I was like, cool. Exploration game. That's interesting. I don't know that I want it to be like a hex tile thing or a note card system, but I want people do have the the choice to draw a map if they want, but, like, maybe the exploration is is the narrative. Yeah. So I took the SRD and kinda came up with this, you know, wizard, temple gods thing. And It would be really interesting to have a solo journaling game that you could play with somebody because, I play a lot of games with my sister, and a lot of those are world building games. Yeah. And I thought wouldn't it be fun if we both had, like, an individual playbook Mhmm. That we could kinda bounce off each other? Or if you were bought by yourself and you wanted to play 2 playbooks, you could. Yeah. I like that idea a lot. Yeah. And what we what we came across in playtesting was Not knowing how to structure it, I. E. In, like, a turn order. Mhmm. And it took us playing beak, feather, and bone to realize none of that matters if you just wanna tell a story with somebody. So stripped out kind of these attempts at, like, you can do this or you can do this. Like, no. You can do whatever you like Because who am I to tell you that? Yeah. Exactly. Sorry, RPG's rules in Firelight is so elegant, in that they're so minimal, and you can kind of hack and add into that. So one of the things that I added was, like, a skill tree because initially, my approach was I wanted, like, a level up system before realizing that just didn't need to be a thing. So it just went on the platform. But what I did like was the introduction of, like, skills that you can pick from. Yeah, like, I saw a lot of people talk a little bit more edge. Yeah. Because it is hard. It is hard. This game is hard. But give them a bit more edge, but then also give them a little more of a personality. So, you know, my Dawn Carver is lucky, So she gets to, like, reroll stats, and the way that I flavored that is she just does it wrong on purpose the first time, just to push herself To to see a phone. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I I really I really like the fact that people put SRDs up, particularly, and also, like, Pandion. I think those are the 2 designers, whose work I I really admire the most. And I think If you want to learn game design, start over there. Like, start with that. Yeah. I'd so I think start with a system that's very easy, that's very hackable. Mhmm. If you just wanna attach a setting to a rule mechanic first to kind of dip your toes in, do that. Mhmm. Because I think that's the only way you learn game design. I mean, I I've I've made about 3 games. 1 of them is in public, and now I feel ready to sort of make my own system, hence, Toby's next year. So exciting. Yeah. It's gonna be good, I hope. But, yes, I think anyone can do game design. Anybody. Just do it. You do it. Like, small things. Like, I I went from a couple years ago never finishing anything To having, like, a pile of games that I've made on my shelf Yeah. Which is really cool. Yeah. I did this thing. I did it. Like, I look I look at like, I've got Toby is in Firefall, like, up on my shelf. I've got The Breathing which, like, I'm so much so proud of this film because it's, like, the first thing that I finished. And now I get to add Afterglow totally different times. Which which absolutely share like, show off Afterglow here. Like, look, everyone just look how beautiful it is. It is one of the most gorgeous things I've seen in, like, the world. Like, seriously, I love just, like, the purple pink kinda slightly orange aesthetic. Like, it just it's gorgeous. Makes me very joke on the Twitter because a lot of my work is, limited color palettes. So anytime I put something new up and people like the colors, I'm like, we love a limited color palette. Yeah. Because it then makes you be creative with it too because then you have to you have to really think about your colors and, like, how you're going to use them. He's like, my my brother is an artist, and so I've I've heard a lot of stuff from him just passively of, like, him him him doing his his artwork and stuff. And so I I think that's that's also beautiful too of of, like, limiting the color palette. And then, like, then you have those themes throughout the book too because then, with the Duskweaver and the, Dawn Carver. Oh, I was like, gonna say Dawn car Carver, then I'm like, wait. Am I mixing up which one's which? Shit. Sorry. But the dusk weaver and the dawn carver, do they even do they have their associated colors? Yeah. They do. Which I think is also beautiful itself of, like, having, like, the the opposites, but also not because they have each other's colors in the palette too. It's just how they're used differently. I I just think that's beautiful. But I would love to actually get into, like, what the Duskweaver and the Dawn Carver are, you know, how those playbooks work and and a bit of actually, like, starting the game. Like, what's the process of character creation and starting the game, if someone's playing it? Sure. So, they are gods, of of this world, you get to choose what their interaction is. So, I think I I've had it suggested that they could be lovers or friends or siblings or even the same gods in different sides. Yeah, like a monotype thing even too. Yeah. A little bit. Like, you get to decide what their relationship was. You get to decide their impact, your culture, that sort of thing, which is just beautiful. And on starting the game, there is, like, a setup phase Mhmm. Where I ask you a ton of questions about, you know, what is the world? Where do you come from? Mhmm. Are you an acolyte of the Dawn Carver or or the Weaver or maybe both? If you're playing with a friend, then I I kind of pause it. Are you friends? Are you strangers? How well do you know each other? You know? Just basic things so that you get an idea of where you're starting from. Yeah. And then it goes a little bit into how the game is played, which is super simple. You have 2 d 6, a deck of cards, sometimes sit down and journal, and that's that's it, really. But you start off by Explaining why you're going on this journey, and then drawing cards to discover the next region that you land in. Yeah. Now I have, like, tables at the back, that you can roll on to help you if you're not quite sure. And they're kind of themed either neutrally or more towards, the Dawn Carver or the Nightweaver. Mhmm. Emma Felga and Alastral. There's also if you're not sure, narratively, what you're doing in an area, you can kind of roll to see what people are there or what the theme of of the interaction might be. Mhmm. So in my playthrough at the moment, my dawn carver has got into a bit of trouble because I I drew some horrible high cards and some low, low dashboards and went, oh, no. And so I've switched over to the night leaver who is currently dealing with, like, a trader, trying to get some offerings To so that he can kind of pray to, Alastrell and figure out where his friend's gone. Yeah. I I didn't know that that was what it's gonna happen, but, I'm also gonna draw, like, a bit of a map, and see where they kind of intersect and meet. Not in a hex tile way, just like a quiet year Like, freeze. Like, this is yeah. Like, kinda just basic reference of, like, what's kinda going on, like, eventually. Yeah. I okay. I do really love the idea, though, of, like, taking of being able to switch between those playbooks and, like, going back and forth, like, especially if you're playing solo. Yes. Because, like, you can be like, alright. Here's what's I mean, here and then, like, when things get really because that's even, like, a fun way to structure a story. Like, things like, when you're playing 1 with a group of people and, like, when you can switch, like, the spotlight and the scenes between characters and they're kinda split up, that's where it can be really fun. It's, like, things get tense, ramp up, and it's, like, okay. We're gonna switch over here then, like, you can have that meeting point. And so you can have those really fun, like, narrative moments there where it's like, alright. Yeah. Things are getting dicey here. Let's see what we can do. Yeah. And then, like, through that, there is the structure of, you're trying to find the wizard. And I think there isn't a chance to encounter the wizard's location, but the wizard won't born unless you've defeated all the threats. Oh, fun fun fun. Yeah. It's very, like, conceivable that you could kind of go to the mountain. He's Mhmm. He, it, the, they, she, whatever you decide that the wizard is isn't there. Mhmm. And, you know, you can come across, like, ritual artifacts, But you might not be able to complete the ritual if you haven't found that artifact. Now if you previously found that location, you can go back to it and, you know, look for an offering or, you know, something like that. But I I liked Fari RPG's design choice to approach it like it was Metroidvania. Mhmm. In the you can you can miss stuff. And, you know, if you die, you can go back to where it's not just forgotten. It's not a restart. Mhmm. It's there. You've been there. I like that. Yeah. It's it's fun. And I think, like you said, the the sudden change in playbooks, can really help drive the narrative forward for both. I am gonna, I've got Christmas coming up soon. So so I'm going to kind of finish my playthrough or, like, release a part one. That'll just be free for download so that people can kind of read the story, and see, like, what it's like to play through a journaling game because I'm really interested in bringing more people into the hobby through accessible games, I think games are like one of the easiest forms of gaming that you can get into. Oh, absolutely. Because you only need yourself. You don't need you don't need a whole group of people. Like, it's when you are an adult, it's really hard to, like, get a bunch of friends together all the time and play games. So I absolutely agree. Having double playbooks will hopefully simulate for you that feeling of playing with someone else. Even though it's still you, you're still, you know, having these interactions in character with another person. And you can affect your other character in the world differently too, and so you can have that really fun. Oh, yeah. No. I like that a lot because I recently did an episode about dead letter society, with Rory. Oh, I love. Dead letter society is beautiful. I love it. And so it it's it was really interesting, though, because part of, like, kind of the solo play for that game is just not having someone else there, you know, having either the other vampire not responding, things like that, which I think is really interesting and a fun narrative flavor too. But I love the idea of being able to play both sides and having having those dual stories and being able to have that creative liberty of, like, okay, what is this character up to and what is this character up to and, like Yeah. Even though it it's definitely a lot more work, especially with a journaling game, where you're, like, you know, writing everything down and stuff, I just think it's really beautiful to kinda go back 4th, because it does give it it it it does give that idea of playing with a group without having to play with a group, which I really love because Which it's a huge barrier for people. Yeah. For sure. People trying to to get into games is, you know, schedules and finding a group. Or if they even wanna play it with you too. That too. And I think sometimes, solo journaling games can feel a little lonely. Mhmm. And so, yeah, I I really wanted you to breathe life into the world through having this sort of dual interaction. I mean, you don't have to. You can just play 1 book. Kinda wanted to play both because I wanted to to kind of build a narrative of 2 people who are wildly for an I mean, even in in their ages, my Dawn Carver is in her forties, and the Nightweaver is maybe 18. He's not quite sure. Time time for me in in the way that I've approached, my playthrough has stopped. Mhmm. Although everything is in season. So she's like, some people believe that age goes backwards. Some people believe it still goes forwards. Mhmm. I don't know anymore. We're just in a stasis. I am this age. I might not be that age tomorrow because there's no way to track time anymore. The the cycles have stopped. That's actually really I like that a lot. And I like you were mentioning before of, like, where you can decide whether or not you do want to restore the world and having, like, interesting things like that of, like, time has stopped. You know, there could be, I guess, benefits there depending on where it stop and, like, how the world is now. But then it's like, you know, do we want to go back to how it was with the time being normal? Do we want things to be how it used to oh, yes. I love it. Oh, that's that's so cool. That's really cool. I mean, the the other thing to consider here is the secret third player is the wizard. Oh, yeah. Because you get to decide what the wizard's motivations for doing what they did Mhmm. Are. And whether they're repentful or they're evil, like, you get to decide what the context for all of that was. So in a way, the wizard is the 3rd playbook. So cool. Yeah. No. I I like that. 3 playbooks. You get to play with 3 people. I mean, in a narrative sense, I I haven't given the wizard any form of identity because I really want that to be I want the wizard to manifest however it manifests for the person playing. I know what it's gonna be for me. Mhmm. I'm not gonna say, though, because I'm gonna leave that to my playthrough. But I think it's interesting where you also get to decide the villain's motivations because Yeah. A lot of the time, that's kinda just left either into the setting or it's a random dice roll. And I've given you prompts in there, like, the wizards Did it for this reason or, you know, do you wanna give some of those examples? Just because I'm Yeah. I'm curious. Find something. Because I I really love hearing prompts and examples in solo games. Because I think that's a great way to start thinking about some ideas of, like, okay. What, you know, what's the direction I wanna go in? Yeah. So it's in either your death or the ending phase of the game. So If playing collaboratively, consider if the other acolyte can travel to the location of their demise and make a bargain with the wizard. You're free to decide what it is or you can have a d six role below. The wizard Oh, yeah. Yeah. Your heart, your service, your destruction of a holy site, your creation of a holy site erected in the name of the glow, your memories of the world, or your forgiveness. Yes. I love that. I I I saw that when I was flipping through Afterglow. I'm like, oh, that's really that's really good especially to give, you know, with the with the death thing specifically and being able to make that bargain. Because those are some really interesting moments in TTRPG, like, like, more group games that I've seen where there is sometimes that choice of, like, you could save your friends, but then there's, you know, the negative side there or, like, whatever they want from you and how that could impact you, I think, is a really, really good, like, story element that just feeds that feeds me. Like, it makes me excited. Like, that's just a really fun thing to come across. Love it. And then let's see what you're saying. As well. I am also a believer that not every ending has to be a good one. Yeah, it doesn't have to be. Like, I I think sometimes when it comes to a, when it comes to group games, it can be really easy to, you at the end, you wanna be the heroes. You wanna be able to fix whatever was going on and all of that. But I I seriously love the idea of exploring bad endings within games, but that can be definitely a difficult thing to do with a group if you're not all on the same page of this could end badly or being open to that idea as well. So solo games are a really good way to, like, discover and and actually, like, play around with those ideas in a space where you don't have to worry about, like, other people's expectations or not worry about their expectations, but you don't have to worry about, like, how they're gonna enjoy the story because you're not gonna fail whatever their expectation was, you know, we're gonna be heroes by the end. Maybe not. That's why you do have to be clear. Session zeros are great. Talk about talk about your idea for the game, like, always forever, always important. But Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. I I I I love that too, and and that's definitely something I've wanted to explore more within games is that it doesn't have to end well because I just love the I love I do love tragedy. That's one thing that I love about 10 Candles is that like, you die at the end. It doesn't matter how it goes. You are you are dying at the end. Calamity. They're such a beautiful game. Yeah. I I can't play that with my group. Yeah. My the group that I play with normally are, I love them to death, but they really struggle with pull like, pushing the button and, not and, you know, there was, a couple of players who were a bit nervy about character deaths, so I took it off the table because we're playing a game. It should be fun. That's that's one of my players as well. Yeah. And and I think, like, if it if it helps them feel Like, they're having more fun at the table, just take it away. It should. There's nothing wrong with it. You you can introduce, like, tension and risks in other ways. Yep. And I think for Afterglow, what I wanted was you get to set that level of tension because I've not defined it for you. And it's it's funny because, like, I'm I feel like I'm sat here having a really in-depth discussion and not knowing if that gets a prop in the design philosophy. I hope it does. Mhmm. But, you know, with the wizard, you you can decide whether or not they're evil Yeah. Or if they were just trying to do a good thing or even if they've been scapegoated. And, actually, it was it was x. And the idea that, you know, you can die and you can choose to come back or, you know, a devil's bargain, borrowing from blades Mhmm. It's really interesting to me because I think as humans, we want closure with stories, and we want, you know, to feel like a hero, particularly in, like, fantasy, you know, role playing games. And that's fun. Is it as interesting? For me, no. I get really bored of characters that can always solve problems know always the hero. I I'm curious if if that's maybe even a reason why you've connected with blades too because you're not supposed to be playing good guys necessarily. Like, you're you're playing, like, people who are committing crimes and, like, you know, doing things selfishly Yeah. And they're not the hero. Yeah, I think when you've played enough of a certain type of story, you you want a bit more. And for me, I'm I like, Mork Borg is interesting because it's punishing. It's a really punishing game. If you wanna watch your character, then you're gonna find it. And, like, I lost 3 characters in 1 session, because we we There must be a record. I well, you know, 2 hit points. What are you gonna do? Yeah. Exactly. No. It's it is so intense. I I know that we rolled for, like, characters on, the Morgueb episode that we did. And I think I I ended up getting, like, high hit points, but it's like, that's really rare. Like, that's that's not gonna happen. Under a d six. It's Yeah. Like And even though the math is small, that's still absolutely terrifying when half of your health can go just with 1 hit, and it's like, oh. Yeah. I mean I'm in nature. And you can still connect with that character. Exactly. You've only been playing them for half an hour. I think like, we mentioned this a little bit before about, you know, AP's, like, Critical Role introducing the long form narrative and that not necessarily always translating over to indie, and that's okay. Yeah. That's fine. You don't have have these, like, heroic overarching narratives. They're fun. I really love my d and d group. We're we're meeting hopefully soon over Christmas. I've got all the stuff planned. It's gonna be really fun. But smaller games with richer experiences should also not be thrown out, I think, and they should be designed. Yeah. Like, 10 Candles is a beautiful game Mhmm. That I think would a lot of people would feel a bit nervous about playing. Same with, Bluebeard's bride. Absolutely, you need safety tools for that game. You need session zeroes to to set patience you need them for any game, but particularly games like this. Anything that starts to get, like, horror pushing like, it can push boundaries and stuff like that too. Like yeah. Just even if you know each other, just make sure. Yeah. But with solo games, you get to Decide what those lines are and maybe move them in the comfort of your own space. Exactly. I I got very deep Into my playthrough of the sealed library, and was, like, nothing safety tool ish, but it made me think about some things about myself. And Yeah. I think people think, like, solo journaling games. Oh, you flip a tarot card, and you read a prompt, and you write about it. Sure. But you can also craft a story, and you can explore your inner world, as richly as you can at a table. And I think that solo journaling games do not get that kind of credit, as often as they should. Dead Letter Society, Rory is is such a good designer. I'm really excited for Sanguine Paths. But Oh, same. Dead light society is really interesting to me. 1, because I, like, grew up reading Anne Rice, and I love vampires. But also that idea of you can play with somebody or you can just keep writing letters to someone that is not responding. That's the place where I would wanna do yeah. And, like, exploring that and even even just the idea of it being letters too and and that whole mindset and experience too. Like, you are sitting down to write a letter. Like, that's some that is different than just okay. Be because if you're looking at at solo games, bare bones. It it can be you roll a dice, you get a prompt, you write down. You know? That bare bones, if you're not looking at anything else that that's pretty much how a lot of them function, but, like, kind of that that then bringing it into a different perspective of you are someone sitting down to write a letter to maybe a friend or or a loved one or maybe to someone new, like, there can be so many different options and just like the thought process of and and going between the journaling and writing the letter too because how you handle your journaling is gonna be completely different than sitting down to write the letter. I just think it's really beautiful how different it is and how much you can go back and forth and and the different experiences of, like, what you're giving the person too because, like, you can give you can do real letters and play with another person and give them the letter and they have to not have to, but, like, they respond back. Anne Yeah. It's just that letter. Do for friends when we play it. But even solo, like, I I had a a character sort of ready to go and then convention prep going away. But I, like, made a promise to myself that I would sit down and write a letter and put it in an envelope and seal it. Yeah. As part of the experience of writing a letter, I'm gamifying the physical action of writing a letter, and then I'll be keeping them in piles. Mhmm. I didn't because I have no chill. It was like, oh, I'll get stamps and stuff as well. It'll be really sick. Like, I will I will make some little, like, skull stamps on my envelopes. Absolutely. Busy, and I come up with stuff like this. And Yeah. But yeah. I mean That's that's why you that's why you make it your job so that you can do it full time. Like no. I would love like, I've missed playing in person games so much because I love the physical element of it. I love the idea of making props and and having those letters and being able to do. Again, that's that's why I do love taking notes. I have a physical version of the game right there even as I I do, like, I do the improv, like, GMing for my monster of the week game, and I'm probably the okay. I'm not the only person. I'm one of the 2 people in the group that actually takes notes during the game. Yeah. Part of it is to remember what I say and and make sure I'm keeping things consistent, especially with, like, mysteries and stuff, but it's just I can now look back, I don't know, years later and see everything that happened during the game and my thought process and and all the different small things as well, which I think is really beautiful. And what I love about the idea of, like, playing solo Anne actually, like, sealing the letters away is maybe you never open them for years. And maybe you could open them sometime, and it's like, I remember doing this, and, like, it's gonna be such a a Yeah. A cool experience to, like, I think that's so cool. I love it. Arty. It's it's really arty, and I I kinda love that. And I I love the record of creativity that goes into Mhmm. Solo games. And it is so easy to brush it off as like, well, I can just write a story. Like, yes. You can. You can, but you're robbing yourself of the engine of that experience. Mhmm. And, you know, have I been a bit loosey goosey with Afterglow in places? Yes. It is on purpose. I I think that is very much it seems to be so far my approach to game design because narrative is more important than rules for me. Mhmm. And Far East systems, work for me because they are elegantly simple. Yes. And you can kinda build on them. But with Afterglow, you know, it'd be really cool, at the end to to show people the map that I'm drawing. Mhmm. And to have that. And, like, I I think I've said I'm gonna make it available as a zine that you can download, read the story. Excited for this. Yeah. It'll be good. I'm excited. I said I wasn't gonna do any work over Christmas, and then I'm like, Yeah. It's like, oops. Anyone who knows me, I'm so busy all of the time, and I keep going. But wait. This thing and it frustrates Logan to no end, but, you know, it's you have to we're storytellers, aren't we? Ultimately, that's why we get into this hobby. No matter the direction from which we come in, games are really beautiful and the engines with which you can experience different angles of storytelling is really interesting to me. Deadlights Society, you're a vampire. In Afterglow, you're an acolyte of a sun or a night god. You know? Mhmm. In the breathing, you have to discover a piece of knowledge. I've left that up to you to decide what that is. That could be like, did you know mice actually have 3 feet? Yes, you have you have run your way out of the archive. Like, you know, ducks. I love that. Ducks. Yeah. I love I love game design. I love this hobby, and I love how passionately creative people are about it. And I think the more that you play, the better you become. Not only as a person who is approaching it as, like, a hobby or even, like, in my case, as a job, but just as a person, the richness of that experience. Your inner world can be just as interesting as the group outer world, and I think that gets overlooked sometimes. I I agree. I think the out of world, out of game experience, at least for me, is something that's that's something that's really connected with me a lot is because, like, there's been a pretty large section, you know, but, like, with COVID happening and and stuff like that, I used to play pretty regularly in person games. COVID hit. I moved all of these things. I've I've been in an online D and D game since then, and so I've been able to play but not to the extent and and and not as much as I would like. And so for me getting into TTRPGs, what that kind of did for me is I loved reading the books. I loved thinking about the mechanics and thinking about the stories and that I could tell and how to use these mechanics in the games. And that's what's really just spark so much of the passion at least for TTRPGs for me is all of the out of game stuff. I love doing session 0. So those are some of my favorite, like, mines in a game, especially when it's collaborative, like, planning out the world together too. Like, I I have very fond memories of sitting in corded calls with my brother trying to plan out our monster the week world and finding this just really small town in, like, Northern Washington dates called Maple Falls, and it's like, this would be perfect for our monster of the week game. Oh, I love that. And and it's set there because, like, it's like, oh, absolutely. And so we're like, and so we're like, oh, it could be this and this and this. And so, like, those out of out of session, out of play times are definitely some of my favorite. And sometimes I feel like I'm a bit like, I'm a bit of a black sheep with that because so many people are like, I love playing these games, and it's like, I love playing them as well, but some of my again, some of my favorite stuff comes from just thinking about them out of session and Oh, reading the books and and just, like, getting really into it. And even though I'm not playing and I wish to play more, I I I I I I swear. I I wanna run 10 candles game. That's that's, like, 1 on my list that's, like, super high. It's like, I I I just want the perfect scenario for that. Like, let's get super dark room, tea light candles, perfect group. Let's get into it. But I yeah. I I just love what you said there. Like, I think that is underappreciated because I think that's a really important element especially for GMs because there's a lot more thought that GMs have to put between sessions than players do. And I know that I I mean, I know that my, my brother thinks a lot in between sessions of, like especially if it ends on a cliffhanger and we're, like, having this big conversation next week or whatever. Like, he'll think a lot between sessions, and I know that my players do think about the games between sessions, but it's a different level of thinking because I have to think about the game. I have to think about, you know, how is it going to, well, what am I gonna set up for them? What opportunities are going to be happening and and all of these things, like and and also looking at the rules and how those are going to be I just love it. I don't know. That's that's something I definitely love as a GM. It it's very fun for me to just get into it. I I'm really excited because the current D and D world that I've played with my friends for 3 years, which I I had had kind of made and then they've, like, built with me as as we've gone. That is kind of reaching, like, the 3 quarter point. And I turned around to them in the summer, and I said, right. Look. Do you want to keep playing? And they said yes. I said, okay. Do you want to keep playing in the same world? And they were like, yes. So what's really exciting for me is probably late next maybe early 2025, we will look at brand new characters, a session 0, and what the world looks like 10, 20, 30 years into the future, where their old characters will be NPCs in the world and will have affected it. I mean, yeah, they they wanna play D and D again. Totally fine. But we're also gonna be playing, like, other stuff, as well, like of blades and things like that. If it works if it works for your group, it works. But what's really exciting to me is they get to reap the rewards of a 3 year long narrative campaign that they have contribute to That's beautiful. With me. Yeah. And then they get to bridge it and build more in a world that they're already really heavily invested in, I think that's really beautiful. I just love games, man. I could talk about it. The same no. This is so great. No. I I, like, these are the kinds of conversations I love. Like, I love talking about the actual games, but it's also all the other things in between that I just adore. It's Yeah. It's also interesting as well when you were mentioning, like, the long term, like, narrative play, you know, year long sessions. It's it's interesting because I I've been thinking about that a lot recently, and I kinda came to the conclusion I don't know if that kind of plays for me because I am so and I think that's another thing when it comes to play style that those are things that you have to think about. Are are you someone who wants to go for the long haul, you know, 3 year long campaign building this world and and and staying committed? Or are you someone who wants to jump around and play different things and and, like, experience all these different stories? Because for me, especially with getting into t t r, like, all these TTRPGs, I can't help but want to bounce around from a bunch of these different games and just see what it's like to play them and see what kind of stories we can create and see, like, what what what do they have to offer and for me, it almost feels like when I was running my, my first D and D game, we ended up not actually, like, finishing it. I had to kill it before we could finish it because it had Oh, no. Some problems and and all kinds of stuff, and so it's like, that hurts, but it's for the better. And one of the things that kind of helped me come to that decision is we were about a year into the game and I just felt stuck in it. I'm like I yeah, I love the world and I love the characters but it's not, like, it's not entertaining my brain enough. Like, I need something new to be doing and I I want to try out new ideas and I'm kinda stuck with the truths of the world and stuff that I already established a year ago. And for me, that was Yeah. That was interesting when, you know, most of the examples that I see of people playing games is like, oh, I finished this 7 year long campaign or, you know, critical role where they're playing for several years of different campaigns and in the same world and all of that. Yeah. And so I that was a very interesting discovery for me because it's like I need to play my games differently to keep me happy playing them, you know, for my style. Yeah. Such a huge pressure, I think for and I think this is this is where, maybe a bit of the tension kinda comes from between play styles because I love the long form stuff with the right group. Yeah. Oh, it has to be the right group too. It has to be the right group. And I think it helps that these are friends. So, basically, the the the group formed because we were in a D and D game together, and it came rushing down to the point, like like, where the DM had been, really irresponsible in their role. I'll put it like that. And so they were devastated, and I was like, I will pick up the torch, and I we've been playing ever since. And the trust that they have in me now after doing that, after 3 years kinda undoing all the bad work that was that kind of came before. So we love the long form game, and I love, like, they're crunchy and world building. Yeah. And that's where a lot of the creativity is. But what I've also found since playing a lot of indie games is, the the richness of the smaller experiences are also important. I I swear I we just need to, like, talk about games because we're we're, like, it is so hard to, like, get back on track when it's like, I I wanna talk about this so bad. Yes. No. You're I will come on whenever you like, they Talk about games and throw recommendations at you because Yeah. No. This just the whole vibe. Yeah. No. This is fantastic. So, I I think it's interesting because for me, I I've had again, with a lot of thought, especially with that D and D game and and kind closing that out, that made me think a lot about, you know, my play style and and all these elements of TTRPGs I enjoy. And I found, like, I love world building, and I love, like, the act of, like, doing it with your players and stuff. Yes. But then I found that, like, when it comes to games that have, like, super set up lore that's some like, when it is, like, the it boxes you in and it's, like, pages and pages and pages of lore, I struggle with that and I think that comes from not being a super big fiction reader and that's, like, when it starts getting into a story, and so that's kinda hard for me to get into in general. But also there I need those elements that I can do my own things. And I feel like when it when it's so set in stone, it is such a a hard time even though, like, the lore and the world building, I I think, is so fun. I love the world building that I've done in my monster of the week game. And I love the very small lore that I did because it's like, I don't wanna set too much in stone because I I wanna see what happens in the game. I've changed several things based off of my players' theories. Oh, so that's actually a really good idea. Yeah. Yeah. I Honestly, some of the big campaign reveals, they think that I had planned, and I was like, no. You made a suggestion, and I Yeah. Fucking ran a 1,000 miles with it. It's great. I mean, like, I will never tell my players what it was. Mhmm. Like, if any of you, listening or watching, you will never know. I will never tell you. Because it's like a magician who doesn't reveal their tricks. Right? Like, if I tell you how that works, it's not fun anymore. That's what I love about GM ing is that it's like, yeah, I do all of these things behind the scenes, and I'm not gonna say anything because I want you to just enjoy it as it is. Like, we are playing the story. Don't worry about whether or not it was planned or if it was improved in the moment. It doesn't matter. You had fun. I just get to have fun with it. Indie solo games, you're technically not the GM. So all that control is that control is away from you. This is the only think that you're sat at the steering wheel. No. That's the dice. That's the cards. Like, you are reacting to what is being told to you by the prompts or whatever if that's the way that you're setting up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. You that's actually a really good point. You are I mean, it's the same idea of, like, the GM emulators too where you can play you can play these games that aren't meant for solo play, but you just have a system that just plays that role instead. But, like, solo games, they kind of it's it's all an illusion. It it's Yeah. It it it all comes down to illusion. You it feels like you are in control, but you're really not, which is where it can be. I especially do have fun with it as as a GM because it is a fun way to not have that thinky brain going, you know, we're we're having to think about all of the different elements and and what opportunities would be the best to set up. You are just relinquishing that, and I think that that's a good point. I never thought about that specifically. No. Yeah. I it's it's it's the engine. Right? It's the engine of the rule set. And so you can take your focus away from That and put it into the creativity of your response. Mhmm. Which is why when people say, you know, oh, I can just write something. I don't need to play a solo game. Mhmm. But you should though because the experience is really neat. Yeah. It's different. Though. Yeah. And it took me a little while to get my head around the sealed library, I I said before, was the penny drop moment for me where I was like, ah. I think also Babel, which is similar to the sealed library. I kind of went down a similar games kind of if you like this playlist. And I think with games like Afterglow where I've not specified stuff Mhmm. In stone, you get some of that control back, look, these cards are brutal, man. Yeah. I had no idea how I wanted my playthrough to go, and it has not gone that way, and that's fine. And as a as a GM or a DM, you will prep something that your players will ruin. Yep. It's happened to me a number of times, it's beautiful. Yeah. No. It's great. It is a part of playing the game because otherwise, just read a book. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Like, the we are playing these games for a reason. I don't wanna set up every single story beat and have it be that exact way, and that's something that I've messed up a few times even in my own games. I can admit that. I've I've accidentally done that because it's like because it is a much different form of storytelling. Like, you need to, like, you need to keep your mind open to this. These things can change and and depending on the mechanics too and how they work. Like, in my monster of the week game, I needed to kinda refresh myself on how some of the, like, countdown stuff works and how to really implement that in the game. Because I was I was being a little too, like, hard with it where it was, like, this thing would happen instead of leaving it at like, oh, it's an opportunity. I'm like, oh, wait. I did that wrong. Because then it and then in in the story, it's like, oh, wait. I wish we had an opportunity to change this, and I'm like, oh, that's a good point. Yeah. Let me refresh on this and make sure that, like, I'm doing it right because I wanna give those opportunities for the players to affect the story because then why are they playing if they don't get to have that? I let's see. Man, this is so fun. I will just I will just spew, like, game philosophy. I it's fun. It's fun. I don't know. I don't know. I just I love, the different approaches people have to to stories. I think that I find that very interesting. Yeah. Same. Like what you were saying before that that you read you don't read fiction. You read nonfiction. And so the fun for you is is the setting and the like, a soft read. Right? Yeah. And then in the. So interesting to me. But, like, immediately, I'm like, ah, so I somebody out there could write a setting book that another person would find enjoyable. Yeah. It's the approach is so different. And I think it's really cool. I love it. I love that how different we all are and that coming together around a table or even sitting down in front of a solo book with yourself Mhmm. You can learn a lot. I learned a lot about my approach to storytelling through playing solo games. Definitely. Honestly, I want to play more because that's that's something that I've been because I again, I don't have all these opportunities to play as much as I'd like, and so I do want to try and and find ways to learn more because, like, I I know definitely I don't have as much experience in games is a lot of people I've talked to. And I and, obviously, that doesn't necessarily mean that, like, good or bad or anything like that, but it's something that I tired. Yeah. Because it's, again, different perspectives. I have my experiences with mostly playing D and D. I've been a monster of the week for about a year, and I'm still learning I've been GMing for almost 2 years at this point. I I yeah. I think we're getting to almost 2 years, and there are still so many things that I'm learning. There's still so many like, one of my favorite things about doing these calls, especially when it comes to people who are also GMs, is I learned so much from this. Like, just people talking about the way that they run their games and the way that they even the way even them talking about games that they love and what they love about it. I learn from it, and I get ideas and inspiration because it's just a really good way to expand my mind without having to play and things like that. And so I get different takes and ideas, and and I get to talk to them too, and that's just really cool. I love it. So this is great. I love this. Really fun. It's been really fun. Glad. Yeah. I'm trying to think if this may just end up being a bit we have an interview episode with, like, a Well, I with, like, a feature of afterglow and stuff because this, sometimes these episodes do go a bit off topic, and and I usually am able to bring them back in. And I know that I've been able to bring this back in several times, but I think I'm for me for me, I think that there can be some space for people that just talk about games in just the casual, like, chat like, let's just chat about a game and not have it be a whole interview thing or anything like that. Yeah. That can kind of limit you sometimes. And so, like, yeah, I I wanna talk about games. Like, tell me about your favorite ones and how you think that it's affected your play in this way and and, like, yeah, what what what how did you get in the role playing games and and your different perspectives? I think are that's just really fun to me. I love it. It's so fun. Yeah. I love doing this. Well, I I noticed before when I'd said, you know, the about engines being the GM and you kinda sat back in the chair like, wait. A lot. It was like, yeah. Got it. Yeah. No. I because, like, that's the best part. Yes. Yeah. It took me ages to realize that. I was like, wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. The dice of the GM. It's like mind blown. Shit. You got a good point. It doesn't sound that profound, but, like, once you sit down and you experience that Mhmm. Then you understand what I'm what I'm saying, like giving up the control. And for for me, a a realization more recent than I would like to admit is the fact that systems are literally just tools for your game. Like, it it it doesn't, like, you don't have to use all of them. They are just all tools to help support the story that you're trying to tell. And so, like, that's pretty simple, like, a a simple idea, simple concept of how it works, but, like, it was recently where it's, like, really clicked in my head of, like, oh, like, the these are what the rules are, and the mechanics are just tools to help support your story. And that's why you can disregard the ones that you don't want to use and use the ones that you do. Like, they are just a tool. And so Yeah. I mean I remember picking up, oh, I think it was either the player's handbook or the Dungeon Master's Guide for 5th edition. And, like, literally on the 1st page, it's like, you can ignore all of these rules. Yeah. People need to know it would be very mad, but you can ignore all of these rules. And, yeah, I think, like, it is a tool. I didn't really at Afterglow specify when a threat would occur. Mhmm. You get to decide, like, because you're rolling what that consequence is. Yeah, I was curious when I was actually flipping through when threats would occur because that that's something that, like, when when I was just yeah. Because I I was like, yeah. When when would a threat occur? Because there's nothing that says specific like, hey. This is when you would generate a threat or or they're in these specific areas or anything like that. And so that was actually something that I was going to ask you, and that I mean, you just answered it right there. It's it's up to you, and that's where you know, sometimes some of the more free form games can be a struggle for people when it's like, I don't know how to interpret them, but that's just a different know, sometimes it comes to experience and sometimes that's not how you like to experience your storytelling either. Sometimes you need a little bit more structure. Sometimes you want it to be looser, and either way is perfectly fine. I think people people have different approaches to like, do you even wanna fight the threats? Because you don't have to. I think I've written something like a consequence can occur, and you can decide that a consequence of that is a threat spawns. Yeah. And you can instead have a consequence be, you know, an event from the roll table. Totally up to you. You know, when does death occur for your character? Well, I I would argue when you are massively, outnumbered and and overstocked. Mhmm. But it doesn't have to be. And I could probably do with releasing, like, a little a five Thing to just say, by the way, guys, you get to decide what this is. I did it's funny because Afterglow is such a long project. Mhmm. Even though it's not a very big game, it it was one of those things that I started, and then UKGE happened, and then I had, like, all these other projects. And I had some, like, really, like, personal personal stuff going on with shit. So I was like it got to October and I was like, oh, shit. Because originally, it's what Logan and I kinda designed. I have it on my notes board, actually. I will just pluck it off. So Logan came up with this really cool print concept that we just because we hand make everything. I knew that when it came to making it, it was gonna be a nightmare, and I kinda just wanted to get the game up. But we had this idea of, a folding book Oh. Where you have the playbooks. But when we tested it in the Prince video, it just didn't work the way that I wanted, which was so disappointing. It would have been so fun. It would have been so beautiful. Right? Because I this is the interesting thing about fistful of ink, in the TTRPG space is like, we hand make everything. Tobyans is a custom size. Mhmm. The box is a custom size. And so we're we're our ceiling for creativity and what we can do is really experimental and interesting. Yeah. But, also, we are just 2 people and a dog just today, and the dog doesn't help at all. So it's just us, And we come up with these really cool ideas. Mhmm. I mean, what what we produced is still really beautiful. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. This would have been really cool. But also if it doesn't work, that's fine. You know? We could maybe try this again. I Logan was talking about stacking 3 editions of Toby's like this. Oh, yeah. And I was like, cool. That we can do a bit bit easier, when the time comes. But with Afterglow being such a long project, I kind of wanted to put a put a a line under it, so that I can start next year kind of afresh. I'm really proud of it. I'm really proud of, like, the work that I put in and and how it helped me grow as a game designer. Every game will do that for you. I'm really excited to see people play it, hopefully, and enjoy it and see how people get on with it, and then onwards and upwards to to another game, I think. I've got Hark, which is gonna be a Mork Borg setting and mini adventure Oh. Where That's exciting. An angel is eating a town because that's Very morpheme. That's fantastic. Yeah. And it's gonna be pastel aesthetics, which is going to piss a lot of people off on the more rather that's fine. Yeah. No. No. Do it. Do it. Yes. Three parts, Hark, the Herald, and the Angel Sings. And I wanna release that as, like, a book, for next Christmas. That's exciting. And then Toby's part 3 that I'm working with a friend on, Flee Mhmm. And then Toby's indie, which we might try and kick start, but kick starting is very scary. Oh, for sure. Scary. And then, yeah, just more indie games, whatever whatever I can make. My problem is I come up with too many ideas of little things that I wanna do. Not enough time. One of the times, you know, wear old business hats. Oh, yeah. Right. Business hat. I feel that there's been so many times where it's like, oh, this would be a really fun and cool idea, and then I'm like, I already need to actually focus on the stuff that I've already started and act and and what to do and not get distracted with all of Create creation is a process. Yeah. Yeah. I I would be so and also, like, I have to also take care of my own self and and not burning myself out because I'm someone very prone to burnout and it's Me too. Late stage capitalism. Yay. Woo. So fun. Much. Not crying. It's fine. No. But I I I feel that. I'm so excited, though, to, like, see all these things. And if there's ever a time where you just wanna, like, bounce ideas, like, just let me know because I am so down for because that's something I love doing about this as well is oops. Sorry. Hit the microphone. Is the fact that this can sometimes be like a workshop. I I I've talked to I had, like, Rich from Hatchling Games on here, and he was, like, asking me some questions about some oh, he's great. He's absolutely fantastic. And we got to talk about cryptidcreeks, which is such a cute game. I'm so excited to have you give them a comment. So good. Rich Rich is one of those people in the community that is like a pillar. Mhmm. So lovely, so welcoming, and doing really important work, in the space as well for getting kids into gaming, accessible gaming as well, which is So important. CryptoKris looks so good. It's like Gravity Falls, Ash Gravity Falls. Of the Week. It's so your vibe. Goonies, he's, like, all of that. Yeah. I mean, there's a reason I kind of went towards it. Like, when I kept seeing the the advertisement stuff where I'm like, yep. I know that, I know my next new game that I will be getting I mean, that's why I love I think base and also. Maybe maybe there's a theme of of some games. I think so. I'm I'm just taking pictures. But, I mean, I I I enjoy those types of stories, though, and and it's interesting to see the ways that different people interpret them and and create their own game about them because Vason is very different than monster of the week. Basen is so extremely dangerous. Like, it's that free league. You know? It's that free league of you don't want to get into in actual combat with someone because you are going to get destroyed. Like, you like, they are going to kill you. It's it's it's I've not seen a lot about Vason. It's only really come onto my radar recently. Because I think this might not be Vaesen, but I remember a a Vaesen esque game came out to a lot of controversy. It might have been Vason, which I don't remember. No one quote me. I And so it kinda fell off the radar. It's come back on my radar, and I thought, oh, that's really interesting. It's like Brian Proud esque fairy stuff. Yeah. It's like kind of fairy tale, like, yeah Yeah. Folklore. Interesting. Yeah. And I but it's funny because I don't like, modern settings in games. I really I I will play them. I've, like, played Cyborg recently. Had a really good time. I robbed a factory for guns wearing a cow udder apron. Yeah. But Jason is interesting because, it's got that sort of, like, Dark Souls, Like, more poor. I think that's difficult in setting in the, like you don't want to be in this fight. Mhmm. Good luck, sort of thing. So yeah. It's hard to get hold of at the moment. I think there's been, like, a boom or or maybe something. I know that, they have, like, free PDF copies over, Halloween at like, this year, but then at I mean, this is gonna oh god. This is coming out in 2024. So last year, I guess. I don't know. It came out. They had, like, free they had, some, like, PDF copies. I've been seen as, like, I've been in, like, the, again, play an RPG other than D and D, I've seen a lot of people recommend Vaesen as a game. So maybe it has had a boom. I haven't seen it specifically but I think Free League in general has been just getting a lot of booms with their games That's good. And kind of what's been happening because I mean, I I just adore their stuff. I I I haven't I've only played Dragonbane. It's the only freely game that I've they've been able to play, which is like it's actually an old school Swedish game that they, got the license to, and then they redid, not using their year zero engine, but doing a, roll under d 20 system, which I just love. I love roll under d 20 systems. It makes me happy when I roll a one and it's a success. But, like, that's really good. Again, it's like that brutal kinda darker fantasy. It's kind of like a you could say it's almost like D and D, but it's darker, more brutal, gritty fantasy where, again, it's dangerous to get into combat. I played it, with, dork day afternoon on their stream, and we've fought a minotaur, and it was the scariest thing I've ever experienced in my life. One of the characters died. We were all very close. I ended up getting, like, a huge scar on my face. The 1 guy got, like, broken ribs and all of these things it it was brutal, but it was, like, such a fun game. And then, like, they have, I mean, technically, they published morc borg. There are at least they have morc borg on their website. Yeah. They have, Into the Odd on their website as well. That's not one that they, I think specifically published, but that's also fantastic. Another role under copy of that. It's. I haven't played it, but I love I love Into the Odd, and I love Electric Bastionland, which is, like, kind of the supplement for it. It's so goofy and it's also again, it's that more gritty. It's it's difficult. Like, it's so easy because, again, you only have, like, 6 hit points, you're gonna, like, instantly get demolished if you get hit. Like, there's just a beauty in some of the more gritty games I really appreciate. But Vason's one that's been on the top of my list for a while because it's, like, industrial age Scandinavia, like, these basin I mean, they're they're called basin, I believe, in, I don't know if it's, like, specifically Swedish, but, like, that's kind of their folk creatures. Like, they're called Vason. And so, like, you know, you're you're dealing with these these folk creatures that are kind of, like, starting to disturb people especially because you're disturbing their land and kind of their, like, how it's worked in the world for all this time. And so, like, there's just a lot of really interesting elements and it's kind of that cons not it's conspiracy, but it's like dark secrets and and you get to have, like, a castle that you have as your headquarters, and it's just really cool. I'm sick. Yeah. I know. And, like, and actually as you play throughout the game, you can you can upgrade it so, like, you could get, like, an observatory or I think that's one of the things, but you can, like, get different things within, like, your base, and it's just really, really cool. It's I I love it. And, like, the only thing is that you have the site too, like, you can actually see them, but not everyone can see the basin. And so, like, you have, like, this it's like, called, like, Tuesday oh, god. What's the site called? It's been a minute since I've actually, like, read it, but it's it's called something specific and only people with that site can actually see the basin, and so it's just really interesting. It's it's a beautiful book. It's a beautiful book. It's one of my favorites to follow through. With Troika. Because if you like whimsy, and, like, weird little guys, Troika is is picking up your street. I always thought it was Turoka. Is that Oh, god. Probably. Maybe. T r k t I a? T r o I k a. I k a? Yeah. Troika? I don't know. It's yeah. I that's one that I've been I've I've had on my radar though. I actually Oh my god. I think I have Get it. Get it. I may have a PDF version of the game. I need to actually look into it because that's that's why that is I mean, it's like just it's it's it's insane and I am all Just a book of weird little guys. Yeah. And, like, wow. I think you would have fun with that because it's this it's a setting that, like, is crazy, and the playbooks are also a bit mental and weird, Like, you're not tied into anything. Mhmm. It's literally acid death fantasy, so you can do whatever you want really. Yeah. I love it. Like games about weird little guys. And they have, like, the, supplement of, like, is it fungi of, like, the far realms or something like that is one of theirs? I love mushrooms. That's one of my favorite things, so, like, that makes me just really excited too. Yeah. Yeah. No. That's 1 I I need to look more into. I. My playgroup right now isn't built for the type of insane games that I would like to run. So Yeah. I know. So I I hope to to find some people to run some of these games with because I I I wanna play Land of Eem and play these goofy little guys going on their little quests where, like Yeah. That sounds so cute. It's got, like, this whole section of it's actually got a separate okay. There's like 33 books. Yeah. There's 3 books. There's the core book that, you know, gives all the player information of, like, how to build characters and all the character options, the rules, and then, like, it gets into, like, crafting and and and then, like, some of the GM stuff too. Then it's got a whole campaign setting that is pretty much just here's locations and here's some NPCs and and and places in these cities and towns and stuff but it's like really simple where it's like here's an NPC, here's some, like, basically descriptive stuff about them, and maybe here's, like, a quest that they have along with them or something. Right? You can just take it and build on it. Exactly. So I can make that MPC whatever I want, and then I can I can, you know, add my own details and maybe they decide to go further in the game with them? I don't know. Like, there there can be so much. Like, I love that you can just build so much on it, and it's, like, so focused on, like, these quests and stuff. And then they have a 3rd book that is just a book of random encounters, and it is Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful because it's, like, for all these different places and it's anything from, like, a discovery to, like, you in you actually encounter something that's kinda dangerous to something that's really dangerous, and sometimes the really dangerous things is you come across a a sign that says don't come any further and then pass stats, like, maybe an evil witch, but, like, it doesn't say that you go all the way through. You have the choice. It says don't come any closer. Okay, players, this is what you find. What do you do? Do you decide to keep on going? Okay. Then you're gonna have to encounter the terrible witch if you decide to push like it was telegraphed to you. Exactly. Majorly. Exactly. But I love that it's stuff like that and not just you get into this encounter. Like, it kind of provides a little bit more to it, and that actually really got me excited around the ideas of random encounters in games because it's not something that ever really connected to me super strongly because I just thought they were, oh, you roll some dice and you decide that, oh, you you encounter a hag because that's just what the dice said. I don't use it in my games. All of my encounters are structured in Percival because I'm like, if it's just to chew the party's hit points down Mhmm. Or or their abilities or whatever, why? Or combat just to have combat when Yeah. No. At least for the style of gaming that I enjoy, that's not something that because, again, it always comes down to personal preference, but definitely for the tight one, do 6. Yeah. And that's okay. It would be 6 cheap. You do. Yeah. No. I I think I think also depends on the system. Right? Like, I feel like random encounters in a game like, Maus Ritter would be quite fun. Yeah, exactly. But not in for me, not in, like, the bigger long form stuff. Yeah. Like, that's the purpose yeah. If especially if it's long form, you're you're telling a a much bigger story, and then you sprinkle in random encounters between it. It can especially, it can get off topic because a random encounter can become its own story too. And that's what I realized when I was, like, going through Land of Beam. I'm like, wait a minute. These are, like, in like, this could be an intro to then a much larger story. You could come across some camp that maybe is a camp for a bunch of cultists, and then maybe you find out more information and, like, you go to this town and they're like, oh, yeah. We're dealing with, like there seems to be this, like, weird cult that's starting to run. I don't know. They're, like, messing around in this cave, then maybe you wanna investigate that further, then you find out maybe they're trying to summon something terrible and, like, it Yeah. It's It could build upon 6. We will really throw the vibe. Yeah. What d section really throw the vibe. I love that. No. But I I did it. I did it with my group, where one of them had signed sort of said they wanted to fight a an archfey. So I was like, okay. On the March fay. Yeah. And then realized that was quite disruptive to what we were doing. I had no idea. So then I had to, like, tie it in Somewhere. And it ended up being for the good, but that's not an archer is not randoming how to throw it, you play. Yeah. Stick with the sheep. Yes. Stick with the sheep. The sheep and the ducks and it'll be fun. I I love stick with the sheep. Ducks. Yeah. Actually, we're we're just gonna play a game where you are just set on a farm and everything's just gonna revolve around farm animals and, you know, poultry and and all of these things, and you're gonna have to deal with it. Yeah. Let's. Alright, the 3 turkeys. Figure it out. I don't know. You laugh, but there is a shop in Cardiff it's called Tabletop Emporium who've just stopped a game called, like, nonviolent animals or something like that, and it's like an animal crossing yes. Grimdark throw off. Yes. I love that. Sounds quite interesting. I am laughing, but also, yeah, it is like that would be fun if what if it was just set on this really large farm? What if it was several farms? Hey. Let's have let's have a game of rival farms and figure out what happens. Is 1 giant chicken, Kakar. Kakar. You know? Not actually chicken. It's giant raven. Tada. Yeah. Woah. Actually, it was it was an it was it was it's disguising itself so that it could infiltrate the farm. You see? Improv skills. It's Exactly. You do it. No, it's now I wanna play a game. Now I wanna play a farm game. Yeah. Give me give me that Stardew Valley, but, like, rival rival farms. Give, like, yeah. Okay. Idea for next year. Okay. I will cancel it onto my schedule. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe maybe, like, 2025, we'll we'll see. Late 2020. And that's what I love about this too. Man. No. That's so fair. I've I think so far, like, two 2 or 3 games have been kind of designed on this show. I I did a episode with Grant from game master Monday, and we literally basically made up a game about, being a fly and you only live for, like, 24 hours and you have to face your own mortality. We didn't actually, like, make the game. We basically theorized about the game and was like, someone make it, please. One one of my favorite, like, 1 p 1 page RPGs that I was like, there's no way that that anyone would play this except me is, you are a flock of really angry seagulls. Yes. Yes. It's I think it is Grant Howard. I would have to check. I think it is. He makes games like that all the time. Of the actions is like yellow chip, and I was like, where has this game been all my life? Yes, please. I need I need to play that. No. I love because I I to you. I mean, I live in a seaside town, so we get seagulls. And I love they do this stupid little dance every time it's rained where they're like because they wanna bring the worms up, but they just plug. And then they'll mix stuff out of your bin. Seagulls are prime words. Like, I love They They're angry all the time. They are. And and then it's so fun to watch them on the beach when it's like people are like I've watched a seagull steal a fry from someone who is just sitting right there and then just go on with their day. Like, it's like, okay. This is normal. This is my food now. Thank you. And it's like, okay. Yep. Now you don't you don't take food onto the beach that's the seagulls food now. Yeah. No. They will they will chase you. It it's I mean, like, any game that involves birds is gonna be a good time because birds are the most chaotic beings in existence and I appreciate that about them. I I once was threatened by a, a I believe it was a swan or no. It was a goose. It was a goose. It was a very large goose. They have teeth. Why do they have teeth? They don't have teeth. Why do they have teeth? Why are they so big? Why are they just, like, let free? Like, these are predator. It's like, it is My my boss at my part time job has a ton of geese, and he will leave work early because he's like, I've gotta go put the geese to bed. I'm not joking. And he came in the event have chickens and ducks. Like, that's what we do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, he came in into a meeting the other day and was walking, and he I was like, are you okay? And he's like, yes, Sophie bit me. I'm like, what? Who's Sophie? Oh, one of my keys. So I'm like, oh, okay. That's not normal. At least if you get bit by a duck, it's like, oh, you're cute. But, like, yeah. No. Geese will will leave damage. Like Yeah. They they will mess you up. We're weird into a weird track here. I'm sorry. Nope. You are good. It's been so fun to talk, though. No. It has, and I think this I mean yeah. Let's let's wrap it up here. I mean, yeah, we didn't talk about after afterglow probably as much as we usually talk about other games on this show Oh, look. It's fine. If that's the anchor to book a discussion about games, I'm more than than happy with that. So, you know, I I just wanna say, hey, guys. You should totally check out Afterglow and and all of that and actually, like, you know, look at the game and and read it yourself because, we talked about a bunch of aspects of it and and, you know, solo journaling in general. And if any of that really connected with you, please check out the game because I think that's something I love about doing these is when you get someone who's super excited about a certain style game or or a game that they're, you know, talking about that they love is that you get to hear what they're excited about that. And if you connect with that, check out that game because that means you probably have a similar play style or enjoy the same types of stories, and it's a great way to start experiencing some other games without being scared of what to try. So if any of this connected What I will say, if you've never played a journaling game before and you want to, hit me up. Come into my DMs, essentially, nicely. And I will provide you with a copy because, as much as you know, I do this for business and money reasons. I also do it for passion, and, I want more people to come over into the hobby. And if so, if I can facilitate, you know, a free copy of the game to somebody, I will do that. Yeah. I'd I'd like, I need to put some community copies up as well. But if any any of our games that that aren't, like, in a in a big system like D and D that interests it's you, and you wanna, like, either review it or or play it and you've never played that type of game before, hit me hit me up. Yeah. It literally doesn't cost me anything to to get out a free all get to check it out. Recommendations. You know? I'm full on. Yeah. As as you can see from this episode. No. Absolutely. No. I think that's that's very that's very generous of you and and where can people what what are what would be the best places for people to contact you for that and even just ask you questions, ask you about the game, anything like that. And, obviously, any of these links or or any of that will be in the description of this episode as well for ease of of checking out the game and and contacting stuff as well. I am chronically online, so you can probably find the shit posting on Twitter, while it floats still. I'm also over on threads and Instagram, but we also have a website, obviously, that we sell all of our stuff on. I I would say if you're picking up a digital copy of the game, we have them on itch. Io, but if you buy it from our website, then we get the full amount. We don't have to deal with, like, American tax and stuff, which. So we have a store contact form. If you don't have any of those socials, you can just hit me up and say, you know, I heard you on on Willie's podcast, and I'll I'll talk to you over email. Yeah. I'm super I'm super approachable. I will chat to anybody. And if they don't respond, poke me. Fiskill also has a Discord server. It is really small and cozy. It's mostly people dropping cat pics and, organizing games, but if anyone wants a link, I I'm more than happy to provide that well. So Awesome. Yeah. And and all of that, you know, the the link to the website and social medias will all be in the description again of this episode along with a direct link to, Afterglow as well, just, again, for ease of all of this. But now this was seriously awesome. And if you guys enjoyed this conversation, let me know, and maybe we could record some more stuff like this because this is really fun, like, just to Yeah. Get all of the stuff out. I literally, if you want me to just sit here for 3 hours and talk, like, game theory or recommendations, like, I will do that. I'm like, I am on things. People like, have you played this game? I'm like, yes. And also if you played this game Yeah. Counter counteract. Like, alright. Yeah. I'll bring something to me. I'll bring something to you. Again, to to throw some recommendations, or talk through some systems that I really love. I'm more than happy because, yeah, this has been really fun. Awesome. Yeah. No. I would love that. So we will definitely talk about that, but I think that we will probably wrap it up Pierce, so thank you so much, Steph, for coming on and talking about Afterglow and TTRPGs and and Blades in the Dark and and and in world building and solo journaling games and all of these fun things with me because these 6 sheep. Yeah. L and 1 d 6 sheep and ducks, with me because this was just all fantastic. So thank you so much, and thank you everyone for listening. Thank you for having me. Yeah. Of course. Anytime.