Cartograph - Experience & Gamify Your World Building!

Today we are exploring the solo map making TTRPG called Cartograph! This game is getting a huge revamp and coming to Kickstarter February 6th!

I bring on the creator Brandon Lee to talk all about this game with us! He created Cartograph to make world building for any new games more than just sitting down to make a map, instead with Cartograph YOU get to play as someone exploring a new land or even world as you journal and make a map of your findings! 

Support the Kickstarter HERE: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ravensridge/cartograph-atlas-edition-a-solo-mapmaking-ttrpg

Check out the first edition of Cartograph here: https://brandontlee.itch.io/cartograph
https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/414505/Cartograph

Follow Brandon Here:
https://twitter.com/RavensridgeCo
https://www.instagram.com/theravensridgeemporium/
https://www.threads.net/@theravensridgeemporium

Transcript

0:00

Welcome everyone to the RPG Goblin! I am your host Willow and I am the resident goblin and the one who asks all the questions because I'm obsessed with these games and I'm just I I talk too much and I need an outlet and so this is the outlet and In today's episode, we are going to be talking about a solo map making game that is coming to Kickstarter, February 6 called Cartograph! Now I'm very excited about this and to, talk about this game with us we have on the designer and the creator, Brandon Lee, to talk all about it with us. And, Brandon, if you would like to, take the stage and tell everyone who you are, you know, what you do, where they can find you, and all That fun stuff, go ahead. Yeah. Hi. I'm Brandon Lee. I am the designer behind Cartagraf and I work for a company my wife and I run called the Ravenswidge Emporium, and we started out making, like, TTRPG dice and and accessories and that kind of stuff and we've since branched into Doing other stuff and me, I've been designing a lot of games and stuff because I think that's what I really love doing. Yeah. But yeah. So got a Kickstarter coming out on the 6th February for, the Atlas edition of Carnagraph, which is gonna be really cool. I'm so excited for it. Yes. I am so cool. You can find us on our socials. You can find us on, the Ravenswitchingporium dot Tom on, like, Instagram and Twitter and all of the socials. Yeah. Every single one, which, like Every single one. Yeah. And which all of those links will be in the description of this episode because it's always going to be hard to remember which ones, and it'll just be easy for you to check it out in the description along with a link to the, Kickstarter page as well for Cartagraph, because I want you guys to actually be able to check it out and see what's going on there because it's going to be very exciting, and So I think how I kind of want to start this off is I'm really curious, you know, there's a bunch of map making games and and stuff out there, and I'm I'm really curious why you decided to go for a map making game, especially one that's solo because I actually don't think I've seen too many that are specifically solo, so I'd love to hear about that. So Cartagraf kind of bore out of me doing, like, Some campaign prep, and I was, like, coming up with a homebrew world and all that kind of stuff. Mhmm. And I really want to love Just sitting down and making a world map, but I I hate it. It's so hard. I just hate it's so hard and, like, I've seen, like, these, you know, videos on YouTube where the people will, like, Through dice or like, you know, rice or grains or something across a page and trace it to get your coastline. Mhmm. And then, and I tried doing that and I was just so bored. So I was like, you know what? I would enjoy this if it was a game. Yeah. Gamify it. Gamify it. Exactly. And and so it was during, Lockdown, it was sort of and, you know, solo games definitely became something I gravitated towards a lot during that because my group was sort of it was harder to sort of get sessions together in person. So I played a lot of solo games and I was like, oh man, I need to make this game because I don't wanna, like, have to sit here and do this big map because It's really tedious, and I feel like it could be a cool tool and and a cool way to explore, like, doing world building. Yeah. Yeah. So and And and my friend, Nicholas Rubenha from the Biotic Inquiry, you should totally check him out. He makes incredible games as well. Absolutely. He sort of got me into, making games and we We did a jam together, a game jam together, and he was like, you're actually not too bad at this. You should you should try and make it for more games. It was like a 1 page And I was like, oh, I've had this idea for, like, a map making game, and he sort of helped me through the first process of it all. And and, yeah, I just I just needed a game to make maps, so I made a game to make maps. Absolutely, that's so fun, and I love that so much, especially with it coming from a little bit of love from playing, like, Some solo games too. Yeah. And I'm curious of, like, how you even got introduced to solo games because it's been very recent, at least for me in my TTRPG career, that I've, you know, found out about solo games and that they actually exist, and so I'm curious how you got introduced into them. They're certainly like a a pretty niche, Aspect of an already niche. You know, you can sit at games and stuff. Yeah. But it was also my friend, Nicholas. He he introduced me. So he he was, like, already Far down the rabbit hole of TTRPGs. And I was, at that point, sort of only just branching away from 5e and playing, like, Blades in the Dark and some Free League games and stuff. I love that. Oh, me too. So good. I love Freelee. But he was just sort of like, oh, you know, like, your group isn't together or anything. You should totally try some solo games out, and, He had just written one called Grimoix, and it's a fantastic game. You, like, plays a wizard sort of creating a grimoire of spells. Really, really fun. And I played that, And I was like, oh, that's awesome. I really, really love this. And it and it sort of like hearkened back to I used to have, this book series, like a Goosebumps book series. I don't know if you've ever heard of those. Yeah. Yeah. They're like children's horror novels, they're so good, and there was like a series of like choose your own adventure ones that I was obsessed with as a kid, and I was like, oh, solo RPGs are just kinda like a better version of Choose Your Own Adventure. You don't need a group. You don't need to schedule things and organize it. You could Sit down and play some role playing games. So yeah. On your own time. Exactly. Yeah. And you can just stop whenever you want. You're not gonna disappoint anybody. You don't need to do prep most of the time. Unless you wanted to prep for your own games, which I guess is its own fun. Yeah, true, that's true, yeah. So yeah, I kinda Nick introduced me to, solo RPGs and I really kind of I got obsessed for a while with, like, Solo RPGs that specifically, like, produce something that I could use in other games. Mhmm. So there's like, a game called, artifact the same designer also made one called Bucket of Bolts, and in both of those games Bucket of Bolts. You've seen Bucket of Bolts? Yeah. They're really, really clever design and they're really, really almost Meditative, but they really they produce something that you can use in another game. So artifact, has you playing from the perspective of like a magical weapon Or some other magical artifact and, you know, throughout the eons different, you know, adventurers will come, use you for, like, battles or whatever or You know, they get lost in a cave. It's really cool. And by the end of it, you've got history of a magical item you can just drop into your setting. And I was like, that is so cool. You get to play a game and you get something out of The end, and so I was just like, yeah, solo artiste. Something to show for it, which I think, what what I love as well is when I was going over the press kit that you sent me, is that not only is, Cartagraf a solo RPG where you're, you know, making a map, but you're also journaling along with it as well. Right? Yeah. That's right. Yeah. I love that so much because I've, Like, I've seen map making games, and usually they're just to make the map. You know, there's not too much else going on where you're writing down, you know, the lore of the world as it's happening, things like that. So what gives you the idea to actually combine, like, the soul, sorry, the journaling aspect and the map making aspect together because I think that's really genius. It was definitely an idea I shamelessly stole from, oh, well, the idea of the journaling in a solo RPG I didn't see any other map making games, but, there's a game called 1000 Year Old Vampire. Oh, loves it. Yep. Beautiful. Such a good game. And and and, like, The journaling aspect of that was just so brilliant, and it was so simple, and it was such an evocative way to sort of get into the mind of your character. And and it seemed like, a great way, especially if you enjoy creative writing, to play a solo RPG and then you get all of this documentation afterwards. And I was like, Wouldn't it be cool if you were the cartographer sent to go and explore this world and all that kind of stuff? And sure, you get a map at the end, which is great, But if you have the journal as well written from the perspective of your cartographer, your cartographer can be canon in in your in your world. Right? So so I Did a, like, cartograph session when I was sort of early prototyping it and stuff, and and I had a group at that time that I was building this world for, and I used cartograph make the world map. And then I, like, tea stained some paper, and I printed out the journal that I'd written throughout the game on it. And they found the artifact of the cartographer that had, like, Mapped the continent, like, you know, a 100 years ago or whatever. Uh-huh. And so it was just this really great, like like, I I'm super love props as well in online games, you know, you hand me a letter with a seal on it, and I'm absolutely sold. It's so good. I miss this I miss being, like, in person for games so far because I love Props. They're so fun. Right? So immersive too, and you're getting this, like, letter written by the king or whatever, and you're just, like, you're absolutely there, but, yes, so the journal can serve the same purpose, And I think it's a really cool way to sort of give your players a bit of a taste of the world building in your homebrew setting without just doing the dreaded lore dump where, you know, you're just Spilling all this information and 1 player is, like, zoning out. You can just be like, here's a cool journal written by someone in the world, and you can read it at your own leisure and you find out things and yeah. So That's where the journaling aspect came from. That's gorgeous. I love that. I mean, I'm I'm a huge fan of, journaling solo games so much. I mean, I have, 2, or sorry. 7 murders till midnight. I keep when you say 2 past midnight, which is a podcast. But 7 murders till midnight is a fantastic one where you, like, journal as you're a investigator having to solve murders of a serial killer, and, like, you you know, 7 and all of that to, like, try and figure it out. And one of my favorite things is the fact that you do have this physical item that you have at The end of the game. You complete it. You go through all of this story. And sometimes when you're playing a, normal, you know, 1 GM and and a bunch of Players, if you're not a note taking player, like or or no one's taking notes, it's like there there's almost no record of that game, and I love I love taking notes. That's that's always my role as a player or even as a GM, I'm a chronic note taker, because I love having that record. I love being able to be like, this is the game that we just played, and I can look through it and see, you know, how it's changed over time. Yeah. And so I love that, you know again, tying that in with the map making and even being able to write down you know, you can create that lore in your head, but writing down maybe how your character is discovering these things and and the lead up to it and what, like, happens and their thoughts around it, I think is Yeah. Beautiful. Oh, thank you. Yeah. I think it's, like, a great way to sort of drop the world building into, like, if you're gonna use the artifact in Another game. Mhmm. It's it's kinda like the the difference between if you go into a library, you know, some fantasy library and you just sit down reading some history annals of, like, All the wars that happened in this continent so many years ago or whatever. That no. Like, sure. A DM a good GM could spin that, so that's interesting. But I feel like it'd be More common that it's as boring as hell. You're sitting there reading it'd be like reading a real history book that you're not really into. But if you get, like, a first person Perspective from some of this world building and as well, you don't even have all of that being, like, a source of truth. It's just the perspective of this character. Then you can get things that are like, you know, folklore or like rumors or things that it is out, like, right, lies that people have spread, you know, and and it just makes the world feel more interesting and we're alive because our world is full of that kind of stuff. Oh, yeah. For sure. And the fantasy world wouldn't be any different, of course. Yeah. Yeah. It is It is so hard as a as a GM to, like, consciously think about adding in lies and rumors and stuff like that into your story because, like, at least for me when I, ran my 1st D and D campaign and I, like, kind of went full head first into world building, I wrote a lot of the story, I wrote a lot of story and lore within different places, and that was super fun, but everything that I was writing down was a truth, you know, I was writing down what actually happened and it was While that was still fun, it would be even more fun to have kind of more that creative, writing and creative freedom to be, like, okay, You know, I'm just writing this from this person's perspective. And then when people actually go to that place, we can actually see whether or not it's truth, or whether or not it's a lie, and you can even discover that in game versus saying that this is the absolute truth beforehand. Yeah. Absolutely, and and, you know, there's Those are plot hooks in and of themselves, that's like 0 work that you've done and now you've just got plot hooks that your players can fully like, oh, was this town really haunted by, you know, these ghosts or whatever, and you can go and explore and find out. Yeah, plot hooks is a great way to look at it like it it is it's almost like, Yeah. It's I mean, it is plot hooks. It's just giving you a list of things that can interest a person. Like, you know, that that cartographer went and and found a city, and maybe that city is now not there anymore. You know? What happened? What happened? Like, was it a lie? Was it a hallucination? Was did it go missing? Why did it go like, there can be so much Yeah. To go from that. I love it. Absolutely. Yeah. That's so cool. And so, man, this is just really, really awesome. But I I am curious because you kinda started to go on, you know, talking about a cartographer, like, you know, exploring a new world. Is there kind of like a Is there a, like, basic setting or any kind of like like opening to the game that, you have? So Cartagraf has actually been, like, released. It's up on my itch and on my website and it's been up for, like, a year or something like that, maybe a year and a half, and it was kind of just always in this like it was never unfinished or anything like that, but I always sort of felt like I needed more feedback and everything to sort of make it a proper game, and it's really, really hard as an indie developer to get feedback and to get people to, like, review games and and all that kinda Stuff and play testing is is so hard. So I spent a lot of time play testing it myself, but Mhmm. I've had enough feedback now that I feel like I can sort of refine the game. And one of the main points of feedback was like, There needs to be a starting point in the game because it was kinda just like I had the cycle of play and you kinda just arrive on this continent and you just jump into, like, Going to different locations, exploring them, you know, journaling, all that kind of stuff. So in the Atlas edition, which is kind of me finally Collating all of the feedback I've got and doing like a revised edition almost of Cartagraft, and like, you know, doubling the content and all that kind of stuff. Has been getting obsessed with writing all of these prompts and everything for it. But in in that, one of the main pieces of feedback I've addressed was, like, having that starting point. So now There's a bit more of an involved character creation. Before it was just kinda like pick a name, pick some pronouns, you know, and off you go. But now there's like a bit more to it and you have like a a Background that sort of instantiates where you were from and why you're actually going to this continent in the 1st place. So you might be going because you're, you know, a simple one. Your cartographer company is like, found this new island. We want you to go fight figure out what it is, map it, all that kind of stuff for our catalogs, or maybe someone you love has gone missing and has gone to this continent. So your real, you know, motive is you're exploring this place to try and find them or maybe you're fleeing from something and all that kind of stuff. So now there's, like, a bit of a a background that's grounded in The game, and it gives you a starting point, and it gives you a reason for going there. I think that's definitely been a good one of the better improvements I've added to the So, yeah, now now you have the starting point and now you have this reason for actually going to this continent. Yeah, I love that, and I think that's That's really important because, you know, some of the solo games that I do, I do have and have played, you know, Over the Mountain is one that I've played. The whole start is that you've moved to a small town in the mountains, you know, that's the start. You're you're, like, starting new, and so being able to have that point like okay this is where I'm starting, I know you know I'm I'm here because, yeah, maybe my sister went missing and you want to try and find finder, and that also adds an extra point of storytelling within your game as well because it's not just, you know, making the map. It is also this other goal. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I I wanted that to sort of be important In the game, particularly because I think if I just left it as, like, you're a cartographer with a name and and you're just going to this place to map it out, It's sort of it's moving away from role playing at that point. It's kind of becoming like a game book almost where you just have this procedure and you're doing some resource management and you're creating this map, but there's not a whole lot of Actual storytelling besides the world building, and I feel like, you know, even board games can achieve some level of world building and stuff. Yeah. So in order to sort of bring it back, make sure it's still a TBRPG, I think, you know, having those goals and all that kind of stuff allows you to flesh out the cartographer because at the end of the day, that's a Person that you're playing and that's perspective that your journal is written from and even the perspective that the map is drawn from. So Coming back to all of those lies and and those, you know, things that might not be half truths, it's it makes the game so much more about the story that's being told rather than just purely world building. Exactly. World building for world building sakes, which can be fun, but definitely not everyone's Cup of tea. And I I mean, I can definitely resonate with wanting there to be a bit more of a drive to create the world. I mean, even part of my world building that I did for my game. I brought in, like, I made my path on, like, super involved with it because I wanted to be able to tell some stories of why things were happening. And that was the easiest way to do that. But if you have a game that you can literally make the story out of. Yeah. So cool. I love it. It's been really good just, like, I've been using it a lot as a tool when I wanna do a homebrew world and stuff too because, You know, in cartography, if you go to a city, so the way it sort of plays out, you'll pick a location that you've sort of found on your map, and you'll go there and you draw like a card from a standard deck of playing cards Mhmm. And then you consult a table and it will tell you, it give you a sort of like a vague prompt And I might just sort of say, you know, all the people in the city are missing. What do you think has happened? What clues have been left to their disappearance or whatever? Yeah. And so you, In your journaling, you can also just, like, if you wanna go back and do some more hardboiled building about this setting that you're creating, you could just go into a Google Doc and just, like, through your journal and go, oh, yeah. Okay. So this is the city that had all these people missing. Mhmm. Let's give it a name. Let's, like, flesh out what actually happened to it. Or you can just leave it as soft will built, You know, through the lens of your cartographer and stuff as well, but yeah. It's good to have that flexibility there and, you know, be able to world build in the way that you like to world build. I love it, and so I actually would love to get a bit more into kind of the actual plane of the game, you know, what are the, I guess, steps of of playing, you know, from from beginning. You know, you're making a character clearly, and so the process of that is, yeah. I I guess The best thing, basically, is, like, let's go through the different processes of the game. So you start with character creation, and how does that work a bit more in detail? Character creation is like pretty simple. You could probably have a character done in like 5, 10 minutes something like that I'd say. So it's really, really easy to jump in and create a character and you sort of just, there's no, roles for skill checks or anything in this because it's just sort of it's more of a procedural game. Yeah. So there are, like, optional to do that if you're really hearkening for some nice rolling physical checks. But yeah. So the main idea is you just come up with, like, a a value and a disposition Position that sort of define your character a little bit loosely enough for you to sort of know how to role play them. Mhmm. And then you get, like, a specialization, so you might be a a scientist, cartographer, or Something like that that gives you a little bit of a bonus. So it's like a very, very light class system. You only get the one time bonus from picking it, but it's, you know, something flavorful you can use as well, and you just come up with Parents, so character creation is really quick, really, really simple, and it sort of just gives you it's more about like the the words you would get. So you might get the value of like Honesty. And you might get the disposition of grumpy. So you're a really grumpy person that, you know, really values the, you know, honesty and being truthful and everything. And I sort of I found gives you enough for the type of game that this is to sort of know how you're gonna journal and how you're gonna interact with the people you meet and all that kind of stuff. So that's sort of character creation, and then you sort of do, a background, generation. So there's a few tables that you sort of roll on to learn, you know, where you came from? Are you looking for your sister or are you working for your cartography company or whatever? Question, do you have these tables? Because it could potentially be fun to maybe just roll up Some random things Yeah. We got, like, during the show here. Yeah. Absolutely. Let's do it. Hang on. Let me bring it up. That's a good idea. Yeah. Alrighty. You have a dice? You wanna do the honors? Yeah. Let me I I have some in the back here. Backgrounds. You wanna let's do the background. I find that Pretty fun. Alright, so we're going to start by rolling the land that I came from was blank yet blank, so roll me 2 d6. Alright, the first one is a 3, the second one is also a 3. Okay, so the land I come from was dangerous yet Expansive. So Oh. Just a couple of words you could think about when you're Yeah. Considering the type of place that your photographer came from. So maybe because it was dangerous, they're fleeing from Something on. Yeah. They're fleeing and and that it was you know, it could have been big too. Like, it was just a lot of land. There's a lot of places, and maybe Maybe they wanted to find something more they wanted to find something smaller, something that they could maybe make an impact to. Yeah. Yeah. There's some different way like, I love I love games that just give you prompts because it's so fun to try and interpret different ways. Yeah. Absolutely. It's kinda like that little spark and then your brain sort of starts going, like, oh, that could mean this and that could mean this and Yeah. You start connecting the dots, like, okay, this is Exactly. Like one of those people that are, like, you know, trying to find a serial killer and they've got that massive wall of red threads. I I I so badly want to run, like, either a vase in or a monster of the week game with having one Those boars that my players can, like, actively pin together. That would be great. That would be so much fun, and Oh, yeah. It would work even better because in my master Sweet game right now I have a flake which is basically a conspiracy theorist like oh fantastic. That is so good. What a good prop for that sort of game. Am I right? Go on. Man, I wanna chill out. I'm stealing that idea. Yes, please do. Do it. Alright, so I decided to leave because 1 to 6, please. I decided to leave because 3 again. 3 again? Wow. I had saved enough coin to fund my dream of exploration. Oh, yeah. Again, it could maybe be even expansive wanting to go somewhere else where maybe they can thrive instead of, like, going somewhere where it's like They had to save coin. They had to try and, like, really work their way up and Yeah. Get somewhere new. I'm feeling like the trope of, like, a person that's Stuck in like a small town and they're sort of longing to go on adventure or that kind of stuff, but they're stuck working on their parents' farm or something. And so they've just been like whittling away, eating less food or something to pocket this, like, Stockpile of money and I could finally afford like a ship out of there or something. Oh, I love that, that's really good. Yeah, I'm I'm for that. Alright, and the very last table we got is But I Left Behind, 1 d6 please. I left behind a 3. Unreal. Is that Yahtzee yet? Wow. I know. Right? I left behind a problem undealt with oh, that's fun, A problem undealt with. I mean, that can just be so many different things. Yeah. The the one that pops in my mind is the family that they're running from in the hometown is, like, we didn't want you to leave, and now they're struggling because they got one Person. Yeah, especially with it being dangerous too. Maybe they Yeah. Find they left them behind somewhere that is dangerous, And so yeah. Oh, and they didn't want oh, now that's sad. It's this tragic backstory already. I know. Right? Leave it Leave it up to a TTRPG player to get a track Yeah. Story. Absolutely. Oh, man. Yeah. So so that's sort of the background generation and then we just have, like, a opening scene, so this is sort of how you ended up in the new place. Did you wanna should we roll on that? Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Alright, let's do 2 d6, so this one is for the voyage to this new land but was by way of. Alright. A 4, something other than a 3. Oh, okay. I was preparing for the 3. And a 2, so, you you know, on other side of the tree Yeah, yeah, yeah, so my voyage to the new land was by way of airborne portal. Oh, that's fun. Okay, airborne portal maybe it was an airship that had magical, Like a magical teleportation system or something. Or like a what what you could almost do even, especially if you're going on kind of the narrative that They were wanting to, like, escape the small town, and they were, like like, you know, trying to, scrape up this money and all of that. You could maybe have it that they made a Hot air balloon or something. Like, maybe they tried to do the thing to leave because Yeah. The other way. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I love that. Cool. So so that's the character creation. That's your opening scene and that's the premise for you going to this new place and and that's kind of, like, the background stuff that you do. We didn't do character But that's okay. I mean, we we did. We we did but didn't. Yeah. We did but didn't. We did the the thematic part of it, not the mechanical part of it. No. I love that I'm already invested. Good. See, you look excellent. This is perfect. Yeah. So now we've got our character. The next thing that you sort of gonna do is you're gonna gather dice and and cartograph is sort of built around this idea of a dice pool. Mhmm. So you just have d sixes that are in your dice pool, and they're separated into 3 different types. So you've got your landmark dice. You've got your, biome dice, and then you got a temporary dice and I usually just color code them. So I have like blue dice for landmark and white dice for buy or something and then you have a blank piece of paper. That's gonna be a map the very first thing you sort of do is you roll your dice pull onto the page Mhmm. And consult a table that'll tell you, oh, yeah, a blue one means, like, a mountain Or, like, you know, a white form means a city or something like that. So you mark out these places. Yeah. It's like bringing in those elements from those, like, I know what you mean from those videos that are, like, you know, you you do all the rice or you do all the dice cuts and you Yeah. Like, it becomes different things. It it's almost taking that inspiration from there, and then on a smaller scale that's a bit more, like, From there, and then on a smaller scale, that's a bit more like, oh, you're not, like, spilling a 100 dice. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. It's sort of like the dice pool is representative of maybe, what your cartographer can see from their current vantage Point of what locals have told them about and that sort of thing. So they've kinda they've landed in this place and they've heard, oh, yeah. There's like a mountain range to the north, and I can even see from this far away, there's like a forest in the distance. And Yeah. There's a road leading to a town over here because of, like, a signpost or something. And so now they have all of these places they've heard about or seen, and then you're gonna pick 1 that you're gonna go to. So you might choose to go to the town. Mhmm. And you mark that little dotted line on your map to know where you've been. And yeah. And then you draw a card from, a standard deck of playing cards And you consult a table depending on the location you are. So if I'm going to a forest, consult the forest table, draw a card, and it will give me some kind of prompt. It might and usually they're sort of in the form of like a loose description and then a question, so if we do like a forest if you want to give some examples of some of the props, not props, prompts, I don't actually know if I have playing cards. I think I do, yeah, okay. So let's let's gamify let's gamify the the podcast as well. Yeah. That's right. Exactly. Yeah. It's an actual play now. Yeah. Welcome everyone to the actual play, alright. What do we get here? We got, a queen of what is that? I think I think gorgeous cards these are the cards they're gonna be for the deluxe edition of the Kickstarter too another little promo how's that I love it. I love it. See, now it makes me wanna get the dollop session because I like, playing cards, I I grew up playing a lot of, like card games. So I'm always happy when playing cards or, like, involved in TTRPG. Yeah. Even, like, specialized desks or not desks. Oh my god. Deck decks. There we go. Yeah. Are always great because it's, like, they're just nice and pretty. And then, like, especially if it matches the game too, it's, like, oh, this is my Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. I really like in, how a lot of Free League games use it for their initiative. I think that's great. Oh my god. I love that. So fun. I feel like we could go on a whole thing about Free League and it may never end. No, I think so. I love I love their games so so very much. Yeah. Me too. Have you played Basin? I have not played Basin yet, which is a crime. I say that every time because it is. Yeah. Absolutely. We recently finished up our mini campaign of it and it's just brilliant. Oh, what did you think? Okay. We're getting a little sidetracked, but it's fine. What did you think? I'm curious. I loved it, like, I've loved all the Free League games that I've played, but it's just, I think Vason is my favorite of them. Yeah, it's just gorgeous. Yeah. It's so beautiful. It's such a beautiful book. It reminds me of, like, there was this old, book series and they were, like, the ology books, Dragonology or, easy to do. I think you can see those. I I may know what you're talking about. I don't know if it's it's it's That for sure, but I I used to go to library a lot, and I I think I saw a lot of those kinds of books. Yeah. Yeah. They were sort of, like, Targeted as children's books, I think. They had, like, a beautiful, like, watercolor art, and it always reminds me of Asen or, like, the Spiderwick Chronicles, if you've ever read those books. Oh, no. I haven't. Yeah. The it's very I don't know. The the just the folklore of, like, Scandinavia is such a fantastic idea for a setting anyway, and, like, the base does it perfectly. And and just there are and then, like, what they have. Like, the the bestiary in that book is one of my favorites that I've ever seen in any other game. Absolutely. Yeah. Out so beautifully, and you get the gorgeous art. And then, like, even the way that the monsters work, I just adore, and and it's not, like, actual, like, hit points too. I think there's some nice conditions that, like, over time, like, they get angry and then they start doing this and then, like Yeah. Oh, I love it. It's so good, It's so good. I wish more games took that approach for monsters. Well, now I want to bring you on for Vason, that would be awesome. So Oh, yeah. That would be so cool. Absolutely. Did you end up running it? Yeah. I did end up running it. Yeah. Perfect then. I okay. I mean, like, maybe Unofficial official invite to come on to talk about, basically. Yeah. That'd be awesome. I'll be looking for it. Alright. I'm gonna write that down very quick. I will do it. Yeah. Alright. The What were we doing? The prompts. The prompts. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. The prompts for the forest, since that's kinda, you know, you you decide where you're gonna go, let's say we go to a forest, what are some of the it's there. So this one says so we got the Queen of Clubs, so it's a lively and tranquil forest. The calm breeze gives you a moment to relax. What view have you found the most impressive in this new land? So That's kind of the question that you can sort of instantiate your your journal with. You might just sort of choose to answer that in a in a journal entry as you're sitting in this tranquil forest or something like that Or another one might be, it's, Alpine and Snowy. Thick sleep covers the underbrush. What notable tracks do you spy in the snow? Where do they lead? I really like solo games that give those, like, here's kinda what the the thing is then a question. Because I think that's really one that I I those were a lot in, in, dead letter society, which is a, solo or 2 player game about basically vampire pen pals. And, like, it gets that same thing where it, like, describes what happens, and then, like, asks you, like, these questions. And I think it's it's a great way to set some things up, give you something to work off of, and then, you know, actually, like, make it your own. And I I'm Yeah. Curious for, cartograph. Is it meant for more of a fantasy style world, or can it be used for other other types of worlds as well? It's definitely like fantasy predominant, so there's the assumption that some level of, like, Mysticism or magic exists. Mhmm. But other than that, it it's like you could sort of run any kind of fantasy in it. Yeah. But In the in the Atlas edition, I've included some rules and some guides on how you could hack it. So I've sort of been toying around with the idea of, like, hacking this for a sci fi setting. Mhmm. Instead of, like, You know, a non foot cartographer, you're in, like, a spaceship Mhmm. And you're sort of set out to go and explore some uncharted galaxy or something like that. Yeah. Uncharted galaxies or even the planets Themselves would be really awesome. Absolutely. Yeah. So I think it's like the systems that are the core systems behind it, they're definitely able to facilitate, like, any kind of, setting that you would want, but if you're doing anything other than fantasy, which is the main one included in the book, you're probably gonna have to do a little bit of work tweaking some of the prompts and and that kind of thing. Which that would be fun because I I think that's, that's a fun thing that I like in the ttrpg space is that a lot of people like taking a base game and and and playing around with it, making prompts and and stuff like that that do work for them. I mean, D and D is a great example. A lot of people like to change that up and do and and and, you know, do many different things in it. But Absolutely. I think that's really fun with smaller games, though, because it would be like, man, I would love to maybe, like, What would be really cool is maybe, like, try and, Explore, like, a a a ruined, like, cyberpunk city would be really fun, but, like, obviously, that would be a much Different setting than Yeah. Here's a forest. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. But I Totally see someone, like, doing that, like, making their own tables. And then, like, I could even imagine from a game designer standpoint if, You know, you create this game and you you launch it into the world. If someone came back and was like, here's a way that I I think would be a fun way to play it, and they're like, here's tables on how to do that. Like, that would be so fun and be like, oh, man. You like the game that much? Yeah. It'd be so humbling. Absolutely. It'd be cool if that like, Someone did that. Yeah. I'm not saying anybody should, but, hey, if anybody wants to do that, that'd be great. Yeah. Change the setting and and the tables and stuff, and, you know, we could, like, publish, like, a fan made supplement for it. Yeah. How cool would that be? That would be really cool, or you could even host, like, game jam type stuff where it's like, here, make Yeah. Make your own tables to used for this game. And then, like Yeah. I mean, hit, not hit, that would be really awesome, guys. Oh, man. That's so cool. Yeah. Man, keep that in mind that would be cool, but Yeah. I will I will. I'm definitely gonna do that. Yeah. And and that's a great way to even bring in the community more on this too because I think that's the best that's the best thing that, like, the indie game designers winners have is that you can work with the community. You're not big old wizards of the coast and their wizard tower and all of that. You can, like, communicate with them, and you can you can work with them and be like, hey. I wanna create a supplement. What are ideas? Or even, like, do the game game jam where it's, like, hey. The winners can go into a supplement. Like, that would be really awesome. Right? Absolutely. Yeah. It's it's really nice sort of, in a lot of ways being this close to the community as a designer because you just get so much, like, Real human moments. And and, like, it's been so humbling. Like, when I first sort of put Cartagrah, I put it up on itch. Io, and I didn't really think much of it. It like, for a game jam at the time, and then it started getting, like, a couple of comments of people being, like, I played this, and it was really cool. And it was, like, such a touching moment and, like, Having a conversation with someone, and they were, like, showing me the, you know, the pictures of the map that they had drawn with the game, and that just sort of dawned on me, like, other human beings have this game and they're playing it that I made. That is surreal. That is amazing. Oh, I love that so much. I I just can't even imagine how it feels because I haven't I haven't made a game yet, but, like, you know, I I I do run the podcast, and I I I get those same things where it's like people especially when people are like, yeah. I listen, actually, Just yesterday, I was, talking in, like, a group chat, and my brother's boyfriend's like, yeah. I listen to your podcast when I'm at work, and it's like That's so nice. Like, I I like, it makes sense. Like like, I know that he's a huge t t r p g nerd, but then it's like, wait. Someone, like, Someone I know is, like, actually listening to my podcast, listening to my show and, like, enjoys it. Like, that's insane to me. Absolutely. It's such a nice moment, isn't it? Yeah. And then when it's, like, people outside even your circle where it's like, hey, I love your shows. What are you Talking about how did you even find it? Yeah. Absolutely. So I I I can't imagine how, especially because, you know, when you're playing when you're creating a game, you are you are providing tools for people to have their own experiences to, like, create their own worlds within that game. And, like, you can then experience That aftermath of, like, when people tell you, like, oh, man. I I I found this thing in my game, and it was so cool. And this is the world that I made with it, then I started Yeah. Like, you could be the beginning of a like, you could be the reason a campaign starts because they created a world. That's amazing. That is surreal. Oh, man. I hope I have done that for someone. That'd be so cool. Yeah. I mean, I'm definitely con like, Fantasy isn't usually my my thing, so that's definitely why I was asking about some of the other settings. But I I'm more than happy to, like, do some world building even just for fantasy games to try out to give to other people, like, hey. Yeah. Like, to my brother, if he wants to run some of the fantasy, here you go. Take that. But I would be so down to create a map. I I've wanted to do it. I played the quiet year one time with a group of friends and, like which Lovely game. I love it. But that's why, again, that journaling element did attract me because it's like we played that game, and there was a lot of back and forth of, like, we were doing in the game, but no one was writing it down. And so, yeah, it's like we created this whole world, and it's like, that would be really fun to play in, but then it's like, we only have the map to remember. Yeah. You have no documentation. Yeah. And even in the quiet year, they don't really want you to remember it because it's like Yeah. I think in some of the rules where it's like, destroy the map. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, oh Kind of Hold on. Kind of get that piece vibe where it's sort of supposed to be immaterial and and not preserved. Yeah. Yeah, but yeah, that's it is it's such a good game. Have you played, microscope? I haven't played microscope. I've heard really good things Things about it. It's been on, like, my TTRPG wish list. It's like that's one that I wanna try, especially since isn't isn't that, like I can't remember. Is it the one that basically you kind of Can jump back and forth between different, like, eras of the world and then go, yeah. I love that. Yeah. That's right. And you do you do document in that, just why I like if I'm doing anything sort of more building and stuff. I like I like documentation too because I I wanna sort of be able to go back and reference points and not just have and, like, remember, was that king the guy that assassinated his brother or whatever? Yeah. But in this, you sorta, like, use the in microscope, you get those little, like, What are they called? Study cards, I think? There's little, like Oh, index cards? Index cards. That's the one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so you sort of write all of this this history that everybody builds and create, like, a timeline, and it's, Really, really easy to access the information once you've sort of done the game. Yeah. So microscope is great. Definitely recommend playing it if you wanna of do, like, some collaborative world building in a more literal sense. I will definitely look into that further because that's, again, been pretty high on my list because it, Again, world building games are just fun, and it is fun to just gamify it a bit and just be like, alright. And and that's why even, like, stars without numbers and worlds without numbers, I it's also fun for that too because it it provides all these tools for world building. And Absolutely. I love it. And I'm curious if there's any specific games or or media, or anything that has directly, inspired Cardiograph, like, especially we feel like your love for world building it seems especially, like, gamifying it. Yeah, yeah, that's absolutely right, like, That's a good question. Definitely, my friend, Nicholas, his games have been, like, a big influence, especially, like, Grimoire, the one where you're a wizard. I definitely lifted some mechanics from that that I think, you know, indirectly served the the map making game in the way that I wanted, but his His mechanics in there were really, really good. So he was a big inspiration. Yeah. And he really helped me throughout the design process of it all and stuff like that. And, like, I think Movies like, Atlantis, like the Disney's Atlantis and, Treasure Planet. Those are some of, like, my favorite films made. Planet. Oh my god. Such a good movie. Oh, I wanna watch it. So underrated. Yeah. Same. I used to watch it all the time as a kid. We had, like, little toys. Oh, god. What's the Oh, no. It's been a while since I've watched it. What was the robot guy's name? The little oh, the robot guy? Oh, yeah. The little little little guy too, like Little pink thing? Yeah. He's so cute. Yeah. Raw. So cute. Such a good movie, but that was definitely, like, a massive inspiration. And those sort of movies where it's sort of about Exploring Mhmm. And going out to sort of uncharted territory and all that kind of stuff. Gorgeous. Definitely was a big inspiration and yeah. And, like, Just all of those games that I sort of mentioned earlier that is sort of like the ones where you produce an artifact. Mhmm. That was just like something I really, really enjoyed, and I I sort of there was only those few games That did it in a way that I really enjoyed, but I wanted there to be more of it because it was such a fantastic way to do prep for, you know, other sessions and all that kind of stuff. And and it just made world like really, really engaging and fun. Not that I don't enjoy doing it the traditional way, but, like, having those tools, you know, like bucket of bolts and an artifact that is such fantastic. Even like you could use like the journal you write in, Thousand Year Old Vampire. That's a fantastic big bad with a tragic backstory. Oh, for sure. And you've got his entire chronological history of all of his memories that he's lost and everything, like, so good, so, yeah, all those sort of games, they're massive inspirations. I adore that. I love hearing what inspires, games and people's ideas because I think that's always so fun because then You can kind of get what what, like, especially the, like, need that they're fulfilling with their own games because I think that's that's something I definitely see within A lot of game game designers is there is something that they want in a game. There's something that they want to build within the game space, and it's not out there, so it's Alright. I'm gonna make my own. It's like I want this specific type of map making thing, one that has resource management, one that has journaling, one where you're gonna come out with a final product that you can do something with. I I adore that. I love it. Yeah. So cool. Oh, thank you. Absolutely, no, I I am super super into it and so maybe a little bit, back on track from where we were, which I believe I hope that you guys are having a great time listening to this episode, I think, So, we were talking just about, pulling the prompts from the cards. You know? You Oh, yes. You you grab the prompts from the card. It it it establishes the scene and then it Introduce it, you know, introduces you a question, which the one the lively forest, I thought that was really pretty, especially with, like, what's the site that you see or or, like that. And the the reason as well that I asked if it was meant for fantasy is because kind of my initial thought with that kind of prompt is maybe like some really cool, almost like a, reflection pool with like fairies, and and and and-Yeah. -like really gorgeous, fauna around with, like, trees and all of that because, you know, you you come to this new world. It's a new start. You went especially in in our narrative here, you came from a place that was dangerous and where you kinda, you know, Small town had to work your way up and, like and then that being kind of the first thing that you see is this just gorgeous, like, pool of crystal clear water and fairies and just all, like, almost like an enchanted forest type thing. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I I try in the writing of the prompts, I really wanted to sort of make sure that each one had, like, a a question at the end that would not only, like, Hopefully spark something for you to write into your journal, but, directly gave you a question that you had to answer about the world. So every time you're answering a prompt, you're doing some level of world building. Mhmm. So, you know, in the case of that Enchanted Forest one, I think the question was, what sites do you see around you? What animals do you see around you? And That immediately is, like, oh, what animals are in this land? Is it just are there elks or are there, like, you know, deers and that sort of thing, or is there something alien here? Is it something that I've never seen before? Yeah, you can almost have a dear Pokemon that, like, the different, like, seasons, like, themselves Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, see immediately. You're thinking of something that's, like, different that could exist there, and you're It's like mystical fantasy. Yeah. That's right. I love it. So you said -Fantasy is not your main cup of tea, what is your favorite sort of genre? -Oh, fun question, so I definitely jump around a lot, I don't think there's anything that sticks out as, like, this is my main, you know, I I bread and butter. Like, this is what I love doing a bunch of. I I I enjoy fantasy. I do enjoy fantasy when it's not, like, high fantasy, kind of the classic D and D, Lord of the Rings. That's never been my jam. But Yeah. I I actually, I think, there's a game out there called Land of Eem, which I adore, okay, and it's it's actually not fully out yet, but soon hopefully, and basically the whole the whole thing is that it's Lord of the Rings combined with the Muppets, and it's it's like a whimsy it's like a whimsy goofy fantasy world where it's like you know like it's It's fantasy because, like, there's creatures that don't exist and and and it has kind of some of those tropes, but it's goofy and fun and lighthearted and and whimsical and colorful, and all of these things. So I I'd say Yeah. That's definitely one of my favorite, types of genres is something that doesn't take itself fully seriously. Yeah. Where it's whimsical and fun and and all of that because I I think that definitely reflects with me. I I don't like, like, I love running drama and and I like some of the more serious stuff, but I definitely am a very not serious person. Yeah. Yeah. But I can enjoy myself some freely games, and I love horror too. That's another one that really fits me. I I I do Really appreciate horror. And even though I haven't played any, too many proper horror t t r p g's, those are definitely ones that rank really high on my list of, like, The even just the setting alone really gets me 10 candles. The fact that, like, there is mysterious things that you don't know what they look like and it's dark, and, like, all of this stuff. I love it. But Yeah. Absolutely. For me. Now I'm curious for you. Back back at you, what is what is your favorite genre? Oh, that's tricky. I definitely also really like horror. Horror is really high up there for me too. Like, one of my, Favorite role playing experiences ever was play it was a Dread game Oh. That I played. I'm gonna play Dread so bad. It is fantastic. I just I love the mechanism of the Jenga tower and how it really kind of mimics that, rise in tension and then the sort of, like, lull that you sort of get before the final Yeah. Finale of the the horror movie or whatever of Analog is, but dread is great. So horror is definitely up there, and I and I really like, like weird sci fi. Mhmm. So, like, The dying earth genre is something I I super enjoy and, like, even the sort of, like, science fantasy kinda like, what's that game Ultraviolet Grasslands, if you've heard of Oh, I've never heard of that. Grasslands. Yeah. Sci Fi has never been it's not that it's not something I enjoy. It's just not something I've really dug into too much Yeah. Myself. So so I'm I'm pretty new to sci fi genres and kind of the different stuff like that, but I can definitely get behind some weird weird sci fi, like, anything weird, strange Yeah. Like, goofy, like, stuff in that area. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. When you were talking about the the Muppets in in fantasy, it sort of reminded me of, like, you know, all of the stuff that Jim Henson has done, like the Labyrinths or the Dark Crystal. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Have you played either of those adventure books, like The Dark Crystal, The Labyrinth one? I have not. I've seen The Labyrinth one, and I've really wanted to get that because it especially just the book looks so strange too. Like, I know that it, like, comes with dice and, like, so it's not one that I have yet, but I definitely plan on getting it because I've I've heard I've heard Some things about it, I I I want to know if they're good things for sure. But Yeah. I I I just want it myself, even if it's not a great game. I just wanted because it's a cool thing to have because I used to watch Labyrinth all the time as a kid. Me too. And then, Yeah. Dark Crystal, I've only really watched one time, but I I have seen that around, and I've been definitely interested in that, especially with, like, you know, the puppets and things too. Like, it kinda got that vibe still. Absolutely. Yeah. Dark Crystal is, like, one of the movies that gave me nightmares as a kid. Yeah. Puppets were so terrifying. But things are scary. They really are. They sort of fit in that weird category of, like, claymation and and those sort of, like, weird things that just look Slightly wrong. Yeah, it gives you that uncat uncanny valley where it's like, oh, yeah, that's it. It feels strange. I don't know about this. I mean, all I'm hearing is that you gotta run Land of Eem but Horror and make the Muppets instead of them being, like, more, like, you know, whimsical and all of that, make them Scary gymnasts. Oh, that sounds good. Yeah. That would actually be really fun. And, like, that's the thing that's what I like about Land of Doom is that, like, it is, like kind of the base setting is supposed to be light hearted and goofy but you can definitely go a bit serious if you want to and like it kind of gives you a little bit of that flexibility so within this world where it's like hey you know, some of it's got some of my favorite monster design as well but I can't even remember some of the things it's just weird things I I I am kicking myself. Of Eem. Yeah. Land of Eem. It's it's it's great. E e m. E e m. Alright. Definitely gonna Check it out. It was a it was a backer, kit campaign that I backed Oh, yeah. Last year in the summer, and so I've been patiently waiting. I I got, like, all 3 books. And one of my favorite things is that they, they have an actual, like, campaign setting for it, like, they have a full book that's just the setting, and Why I love it is I'm not a huge, I don't like pre written adventures a lot, I have some on my shelf for, like, D and D and I've looked through them. And I think, like, oh, they're fun to get, like, ideas, but to actually run 1, I don't love it. Yeah. And so I was I was a little nervous with that until I actually got, like, the pdfs of the book, and it's, like, oh, it's, like, here it here are rumors, Here are random little quests. Here is just, like, here's some, notes on an n p c. Here's some notes on a location. Here's just some ideas, and random encounters, and things like that. It's like, wait a minute. You're, like, exactly what I want. Yeah. See, that's so good. I find often, like, with Campaign settings, they could be so, bloated and and, like, hard to read and Yeah. You know, that's why I've always sort of Gravitated away from campaign settings since I sort of home brewed my own stuff. But, like, when it's in that sort of format, I can absolutely see the value in there. That's so good. Right? Just to have It's fantastic. Sort of Stripped back and you've got just these rumors and all of the stuff you can actually use. Yeah, and there's like a whole section where it's like this bridge that's, like, that's, run by one of the the main trolls in the world and all of that or in the land. And it's basically, like, a bunch of prompts of, like, here's what the like, the troll believes in the old troll ways and, like, doesn't let people through, so it's like, you gotta take the tolls and All of that is, like, super comfy. Where it's like, it just gives you the prompts where it's like, oh, if you try and pass this bridge, the troll is gonna try and kill you. It's not like that. Yeah. It's Actual motivations behind this, like, creature behind this person, which I love because I mean, again, I haven't run too many, D and D campaign, you know, pre pre written stuff, but Yeah. What really resonated with me in Land of Eem is the fact that The they set out the NPCs with giving them actual, like, motivations and, like, put traits and aspects that you can interpret in your own way, which is why I was saying That in with the Cardiograph is that I love when you keep it open like that, where it's like this this you could have fiery as a trait. And depending on what the what the what it's connected to Yeah. Yeah. And the other traits that may also be connected, that could be way different Interpretations, like, is it actually on fire? Is the person, like, is the person, like, a maybe maybe they're a spitfire or maybe they have a fiery personality, or maybe they are fiery themselves. Like, there's there's there's a few ways that you can interpret that depending on the situation. So that's That's why I really loved it in Cardiograph when we were talking about that. I don't Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. I I found it's, like, such a good, Particularly for, like, solo role playing when you don't have all of these other people to sort of riff off of, and and, you know but but when you're solo and you have these, like, terms that are able to just sorta Spark your creativity because that ultimately, that's what what it is is you're just sort of sitting out playing this game as a way to sort of be creative. Yeah. Creative outlet. I think that's A creative outlet. Yeah. And it's certainly true in group role playing games, but it's particularly true in solo, I think, and so having these, like, Terms that you can just use as a single thing that sparks your imagination. It just means that, like, you got endless replayability and all of the world being gonna do is still Organically, you you're not reading this passage like Yeah. This forest is like this. It's like, instead, what is this forest like? It's like of these vague descriptors, and how do you Interpret that, it's different every time, you know. Yeah, and they're good descriptor words too for even because I I love the approach as well with describing in games, and and I'm I'm I'm not great at describing in games. Even as a GM, it's one of my weaknesses that I'm trying to get better at. Yeah. But I saw something on threads and and this kind of inspired me a little bit here, is that if you just let's say you play cartograph and, You know, you go through the whole thing and you come to that forest. You know, it's description like, it's lively, and you can use those as the descriptive of the forest. Like, you don't have to get into, like, All of these different things you can use Lively. It's Lively full there's there's creature creatures and critters and all kinds of things around, and you can use it to help you you with your descriptions versus, like, this forest is, there there's, like, deer here and stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah. Direction. Exactly. Yeah. Absolutely. So, actually, I'm I'm really curious too because you you mentioned, quite a bit, you know, that you've you've played tested, Cartograph a lot, which It's fantastic. I would imagine you would do that a bunch as a game designer because it's, like, I need to make sure I get this down. Yeah. Absolutely. I I'd love to hear about some of your playthroughs of Cartagraft, you know, how how have some of Oh, yeah. Gone, like, what what kind of worlds have you built? Yeah. That's a good question. Let me let's see if I can find some of my old logs here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So recently, my my wife and I did, a playtest, together. So I've sort of I've got a couple of rules in the new edition coming out where if you don't wanna have it as this whole experience Yeah. You can play it as like a 2 player game or a group game still. Love it. So, you know, maybe you're a company of cartographers going to this new land or something like that. But we were just sort of playing as 2 cartographers, and we ended up Finding this, like, warmongering people that, their entire civilization was divided by this river that sort of cut through the continent, and there was, like, these religious folk that would use the river as, like, nomadic kind of spiritual journey. They would start at the top of the river. Mhmm. And it they did it every single time one of their tribesmen died. So they'd go to the top of the river, they'd make a raft, and they'd put the dead person on the raft, and they'd all journey down this river. That's so cool. As as their sort of send off to the person and all throughout their journey, they'd, you know, pay tributes. They'd things on the on the raft and everything. And eventually, the raft would open out to the sea and they'd let the raft go kinda like a big, long, extended Viking sandal. And there was a lot of conflict because these tribal people, they were kind of, like, controlling the river and that was stopping these warmongering people from evading all of these other people on the other side of the continent. Mhmm. So as cartographers, we were trying to be so diplomatic. We'd go to, like, the warmongering people's, like, town and it'd be like, you need to go and, like, kill these people for us and allow us to get across the river. And we're, we're just anthropomorphous, we're just trying to, like, see what's on that mountain over there. Like, fun. A map. I don't know what you Yeah. Exactly. So that was a really fun one because the land was kinda, there was all of this tension sort of everywhere we went. We're kinda like, we don't wanna, like, get involved in this big conflict. So So that was a really fun world, but we didn't end up sort of, running anything else in it afterwards. No, but that sound like but that there shows some of the creativity that and and some of the actual, like, world that can be built. It's so easy to be like you know here's examples of different things that you could find, But giving an actual example, here's what I here's a playthrough that I did, and here's, you know, a world that we were in and showing, like, yeah, A map making game may look like, okay, how do you actually create a world from that? It happens. You just got like, yeah, you have to play through it. You have to experience it. You have to, you know, play through it to the point where it's like, oh, wait. Now I have a world. When did that happen? Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And and that's sort of that was definitely the aim that I sort of wanted. I didn't Mhmm. Because I came from that point where I was like, I don't wanna draw a world map. I don't wanna do it. Yeah. And and having to gamify it, I I needed to make sure that the game was gonna be, Well, fun enough to play, but also allowed you to do that world building in a way that seemed like unintrusive and and and intuitive almost. I wanted the The world to emerge from your experience rather than you sitting down and actually, like, planning it out. Yeah. And I think that's what solo games tend really, really well, like, I played this solo game for a while called Iron Sworn. Oh, yes, I love Iron Sworn. I haven't played it, but I've been dying to do some stuff with it It's it's it's more of a mess. I love it. Yeah, yeah, it's fantastic. It was my 1st introduction to PBTA, style games And and I really really loved Iron's Horn as well and and it just did that same kind of thing where you were sort of playing and you were just going through the procedure of being this character and stuff, but all this well doing emerged Because of the way that you played, the people that you interacted with, and and it didn't feel like a laborious thing that you had to do on top of the game. It was just this thing that emerged from it And it and it didn't, like, and it doesn't stick you in, like, here is how the world is, and then you get to play in that. Yeah. You do get that freedom of interpreting it in your own ways, which is something I love about Ironsworn. There's a lot of things I love about Ironsworn. The moons are really good. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I I I love how there I love that there are so many, like, I've played I've played quite a few powered by the apocalypse games, and usually, like, they try to keep the moves down to a specific amount, you know, try and keep it easy unless it's your own personal moves. But for Iren's when there are just so many in there and I love how they can be relevant for different situations and you don't always have to use them. You can you can resolve it however you feel. But if you are stuck and need help and be like, you know, what does happen next, you have the ability to be like, alright, you know, I'm I'm taking a journey what conflict can happen and be able to move that guy straight into that. I don't know. But Absolutely. Yeah. It's such a well thought out way to sort of Have that solo experience, you know. Really is. So many times you get stuck and just not know what to do, but if you've got the tools there to sort of perpetuate never get bogged down in the Mhmm. In the game, you know, which I think is something that I find in D and D. I find D and D sometimes the systems that are in place That you need to use to play Mhmm. That get in the way of the playing in a way, almost. Like like the story and the experience you're having, They're hindered by the rules rather than facilitated by them. Yep, especially if you're Yeah, so many times. Yeah, it's it's difficult, especially if you're trying to do a more narrative approach to a game. Like, I know there's a lot of times when I ran my D and D game where it's, like, you know, I want to I am more than happy for a combat to resolve narratively, but then it's like, okay, you you hit that person. Now we have to Actually, enter into combat and deal with all these rules and have to go through the systems and Combat in D and D sucks. I'll say that. It's it's sucks because it's so long, and there's been ways that I've changed it, by actually using versions of older games like the side. Yeah. Like instead of having everyone roll their own initiatives, it's like, okay, players roll and monsters roll, and they take turns. They, like, go back and forth like that. And, like, there's ways that you could simplify it, like and and D and D again, 5 e. I I have no ill feelings about it. I know that people love it for different reasons, but I think a common problem a lot of people have is combat. Yeah. It's it's I totally agree with you. It's so interesting. But I I actually am really curious, because you were especially with adding in more rules and stuff like that. I'm curious if there's ever been a point so far with, developing, cartograph, if you've come to a point where you had to kill a mechanic or an aspect of the game that ended up not working. Well, yeah. Okay. That was, like, in the sort of solo sphere, there's sort of, like, like journaling games, and then there's like non authoring games that you don't do any journaling. And there's like a lot of people that just avoid journaling games, and there's a lot of people that only play journaling games. It's kinda like one of the main divisions I've seen. Depends on their style and all that. Depends on their style. Yeah. And so, you know, Depends on their style and all that. It depends on their style. Yeah. And so early on, I was sort of like I wanted to combine them. Might wanted to sort of be like, you could do authoring, you could not do authoring. But in order to do that, I sort of needed, like, a a more traditional approach to, like, resolution mechanics Yeah. Rather than you just sitting and running down. So, like, I had this idea, where you could sort of use the value and your disposition and, like, Various other tags, that you would acquire through your journey, and they would modify your dice rolls. So you could do a dice roll to sort of try and achieve something, And then depending on how many tags that you had that would help the situation, you could add an extra dire pool or the inverse sort of thing. And so that sort of resolution mechanic, it was like fun, but it ended up just sort of being too, I had to rework too much of the other systems to sort of facilitate it, and it sort of started drifting away from the the core idea of this map making game, Yeah. Where that was the focus, and instead, it sort of became more of a a cartographer going out and adventuring. But I still want Cautograph to be about the map. Right? That's you're still a cartographer, but the the game is about the map. Mhmm. So I've kind of I haven't totally removed that mechanic. I've instead just sort of, like, Modified it and sort of, you know, shrunk it down a bit, and I put it in, like, a an optional section in the book. So Mhmm. If you're sort of looking for, a role playing game that you don't and you don't like authoring. You don't wanna have to sit there and do creative writing. You can implement this sort of rule set to sort of you know, do skill checks. Yeah and overcome problems and all that kind of stuff without having to write in your journal. So it's not entirely scrapped. I just, like, modified it and then Mhmm. Booted it out to the, like, section of the rule book like the only thing that you don't want. Optional. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. What what a great section. Yeah. Yeah. I do really like this sort of section It allows you to sort of play how you want, you know, I think Iron Swann has like an optional rules section, but it's dark too. Introducing just some other ideas, like, I think They're great, but if you're playing the game for the 1st time usually you shouldn't you you should play the game normal and then try and play with some things that are different because it It can be a lot to be, like, alright. Yeah. Let's play Iron Sworn for the 1st time, but let's play this with this weird rule that's all the way in the back of the book that no one knew about. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. You know, I I love that. And it's it's always interesting to hear, know the journey of trying to, you know, work through how the mechanics of a game's gonna work and, you know, the different ideas that people will try and pitch basically for themselves. Like, alright. Yeah. Let's try this resolution mechanic and see what goes on with it and all of But, yeah, I I really love that. And one of my favorite things that I actually learned from from doing this podcast is killing your darlings and knowing when to do it and and how it's gonna create a better game. And so Yeah. I I love that, especially knowing your vision of the game, the fact that, You know, you want the the game is about the map, not about adventuring throughout this new land because there's plenty of other games that can do that itself. This is about the map and knowing that, you know, any rule, anything that you're gonna have within the main game has to support that idea. Yeah, that's right. Absolutely. That was like a big learning curve that I had in in the design process because Cartagraf was, like, Besides the 1 game jam that I entered, which was like a 1 page RPG jam, I had never really made, a role playing game before. I had some, like, a bit of video games Stuff. Yeah. It was my first one, and it was, like, really difficult at first because I just at first, you know, I didn't even know where to start. I knew what I wanted to do, but I was like, how do I actually Mechanize this. Yeah. In a way, that's that's that's fun. But, yeah, it was such a learning process to realize I had to, you know, cut things out. I had to refine everything And make sure that, like, the game facilitated the vision that it was trying to achieve, and it's definitely something that I've taken into the future games that I've made as well. That was definitely a really formative experience for me making Carnagraph, and I I'm hoping that this Alice edition is like the the magnum opus, the sort of the game that I've started with and now I've sort of refined now that I've designed a few more games and got a few more things under my belt. I love that, and and that's cool as well as the sentiment to it with it being your 1st game and all of that, where it's like Yeah. You know, you're you're working up to making this yeah. Magma Opus mod. Like, it it is this ultimate version. And I'm I'm actually super curious of, like, are there gonna be any, like, big changes, coming to the Atlas version compared to the original that you posted or that you, finished a few years ago. Yeah. Yeah. So I think, like, The main thing that has changed is the, the explanations and stuff that I've done in the books. I've done a lot of, like, rewriting of things, and and Every single time I get a piece of feedback from the game where they're like, really love the game. I was confused about this rule. Mhmm. I've just gone through, like, every bit of feedback that I've found from anybody and just been like, okay. So someone found this real confusing. How can I like, make sure that nobody finds this real confusing again? And so I've gone in and just like, I've got like a definition list now and just a bunch of stuff that's hopefully gonna make the game Mhmm. A seamless experience. You can find everything you need in the game. You don't need to, be confused about anything, hopefully. And and I've also just sorta, like, Doubled all of the prompts because I wanted it to sort of be, like, more variety in the different places you could find and more replayability and, Yeah. And all of the rules to sort of supplement having multiple people play. Mhmm. There was a there's a friend of ours. Her name is AJ Winters. She, runs a A live stream here in Australia. Really fantastic actual play, and she did, like, a world building series where she played through, Cartograph with her viewers On on stream, and it was really, really cool. So she had, like, 5 different characters. She was sort of running at the one time, and you could type and chat what you want 1 particular character to do. And Oh, that's cool. Idea. And she had, like, the map that she was drawing and the the whole all of the chat sort of helped, like, go through the world, and and it was such a cool experience to see someone, I hate playing my game, but also to see her, like, interpret it in a different way to facilitate the type of game she wanted to play. So I was like, I need to make sure that facilitate Rules for group play because it seemed like so much fun. So I've added that in there as well and and just, yeah, a lot of tweaks and refinements. Nothing that's been like a major overhaul because I think that, the core of the game does what it set out to do well, you know. So I was happy with it, and I didn't really wanna Mess with it too much. Yeah. It's my baby, you know. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Maybe it's my hindrance. Knows? Maybe there are parts that I don't know about that. It should've reworked, but I guess I'll find out. Yeah. And, I mean, I think that's the thing as well is is it's it's difficult to as as a creative to always be 100%, like, satisfied as well with, like, the final product. It was like there's always something else that could be changed. There's always something else that could be different. And so there's probably yeah. Maybe maybe even the final version with the atlas may not be the, you know, absolute final version that you are a 100% because there may be something that comes later where it's like no I didn't change that and I wish I would have worked it differently, but that's what other printings are for. Yeah. That's exactly right. Yeah. Exactly. Different editions, you know. I I do have this, like, far off vision of maybe having, like, a a thicker sort of tome That facilitates different genres. So we could have, like, the sci fi genre or we could have, you know, a horror genre, and it's just got all of the prompts made. Apocalyptic genre would be really fun too. Yeah. Mapping a wasteland. Yeah. That's a good idea. Especially especially like generation, like like, generations down, you know, the apocalypse happened here, but, you know, several generations of people have lived and maybe you're someone who have found this place, you know, New land after all of this has happened. What happened here? What's the history here? Yeah. You've been finding the people. That would be fun. That would be cool. Leads some more explanations about the apocalypse itself. Yeah. And stuff too. Exactly. Yeah. That's a good idea. That's, that's so that's what I I I'd love the idea of that, you know, a large thick tome that's just got all the tables you need and if there's any kind of genre you'd wanna play like that, that sounds Really, really cool, but Yeah. No. I I think that's lot of work and yeah. This is true. I got other things I wanna do too. Yeah. I gotta prioritize my projects because it's just too many. Yeah. I I am curious, though, if you do have any, I you know, I know that you mentioned some of your other games, but I'm curious if you have any other projects that you are, thinking about for the future that maybe people can look forward to. Yeah. True. That's a good question you're full of good questions. There's one that I've been working on, lately, and it's called Alpha Directive, And it's a it's sort of a far flung, dying Earth, sci fi role playing game. Not a solo one, just a proper one. And it's sort of it's taking the idea of being an android or a robot or something like that. Mhmm. And you used to be a human and your consciousness has sort of been moved into this, mechanical form, but you you've been alive for so long that all of the are deteriorating, and you don't really remember who you are. I'm good. So one of the core, like, mechanisms in it is, like, trying to, like, recover Corrupted memories and things like that to try and learn who you are and and that sort of thing. And, yeah, that's one that I've been working on. That's probably, like, the biggest one that I've been working on lately. I like that a lot. You can also dip into some really messed up horror there too of, like, living for that long and and people even being stuck in in in robot bodies that maybe didn't want that. Like, they're oh. Exactly. Yeah. It's sort of and I really like, I like Really weird sci fi that has, like, I don't know. My friend Nicholas and I coined it viscerapunk, so it's kind of the idea of, like, incorporating organic, wisdom metal. So in in Alpha Directives, there's, like, this one city, called Palisade Prominence that everybody sort of lives in and everywhere else is the desolate wasteland. And the city itself, it it's powered by, like, Organs and and and, like, flesh and that kind of stuff. So it's like a enormous heart beneath the city that's, like, pumping blood that fuels everything and, like, all of the subway systems are, like, The peristalsis of an intestine tract. That sounds like something you would see in a Doctor Who episode. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I love that. I I I'm a huge fan of Doctor Who. I dig that. That's cool. Doctor Who's great. Who's your favorite doctor? Oh god, difficult question, so I'll be honest I've only watched, 9, 10, 11, and only parts of 12 because we didn't have HBO for a while, and we're we're we were, like, rewatching it and all of that. Yeah. Yeah. Man. I mean, I I'm a huge I'm I'm a huge fan of all of them that I've seen, but I do really like, 11 and 12, I think, really do. Yes. I mean, I love David Tennant. I love the 10th doctor a bunch, but 11 and 12 definitely No Peter Capaldi and, Matt Smith. Yeah. I I I really liked what they did in their seasons, and I really liked some of the stories that they did. And it's just also great because I especially someone who's a huge fan of monster of the week, specifically, you know, the game, not necessarily the genre, but I do like the genre. It was really fun to be watching that while running my own monster league game and being able to catch the tropes and stuff like, oh, that's really cool. But, you know, I I I'm a huge fan of of Matt Smith and Peter Capaldi. They're great. And and David Tennant too. Nice. Yeah. David Tennant's my favorite. He's sort of the one that I grew up watching a lot of, so I just have, like, this Nostalgic sort of love for him. Yeah, I I was when we watched it for the 1st time I was a huge fan of David Tennant, I mean I still am And, like, when he, when when when he died and then, you know, the next doctor came up, I basically Used to watch anymore. I refuse to watch any Matt Smith season because I'm like, I was a super big fan of David Tennant. It's gonna be new. And then, like, recently, when we were rewatching it, I actually gave it a chance. I'm like, oh, wait. This is actually really fun. Yeah. Yeah. I like his style. It's really great. Yeah, yeah, I think that was like a common sentiment. I know my mom she was a massive fan of David Tennant too and she did the same thing she was like I'm not watching Matt Smith, no way he's gonna be able to fill those shoes. And and that's the fun thing is that they fill the shoes in different ways, and so you do get just Yeah. I mean, we're talking about interpretations and different interpretations. You get different interpretations of the doctor, you get different ways that people, you know, decide to depict him and and decide how to embody him. And I think it's just really Exactly. Genius idea for a show because it's like, you know, it's the same character, but there's just so many different versions of him that you can Yeah. It really is. Yeah. Yeah. It's such a good show. The world building in that is very cool too. Oh, yeah, for sure. I, like, man, it's good. I'm excited to watch it again, but Making me want to watch it again. I know. Conjectious, but no absolutely. I think though we're probably getting close to the end here I'm I'm trying to, what what I would actually there is a question that I thought of before we we sat down to record this, that that I was curious of what your answer would be, and, I mean, we've we've kind of talked about how it does, stand out, But from your words specifically, how does Cardiograph stand out compared to other map making games out You know, those big ones like the quiet urine microscope. How does it stand out and, you know, how how basically, almost like a little bit of an elevator How does it stand out and how is it unique to anything else? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, putting me on the spot. Let's see how I do. I think, like, The thing that's unique about Cartagraf is, a, you get the artifact at the end, and it's an artifact you can sort of directly use. It's Not like, you know, like, take microscope, for example. You do get this plethora of information and history and stuff, but there is work involved in translating that into something that you can use tangibly in another Group setting DTRPG. Whereas, if you, like a a GM or something and you wanna homebrew your own world, if you sit down and you play 1 session of Cartagraf, You can literally just take the the work you've done in Cartagena, the map you've made, the journal you've written, and hand that to your players or use that directly in your games, and you don't have to do any anything else. Right? Mhmm. So I think the thing that sends it apart is if if you're a DM and you wanna do some world building, you can just use this tool, and it's Directly going to help you world build, and it's gonna give you these artifacts that you can use afterwards, and I think it's just yeah. It's just A great tool to use for that sort of thing. Oh, that's so cool, and something I think I would like to add on to that that I think speaks to me a little bit is the fact that you can experience your own world building, like, when you're writing it down, like, you're creating a campaign and you're like, alright, you know, This is what this continent's gonna be like. You can write down what it is like, but it's different to experience it in that time you know in that lead up because hey maybe this is yeah maybe you are you are you are building the Yeah. You are you are making this map in a time that's a 100 years before this campaign starts. What was it like then and being able to actually experience that and and have a even more of that connection to it because, you know, writing is writing it out like that is fun and creating that story yourself is fun, but Being able to, like, play through it, I think, is its own charm and its own, like I I just think that's a really Fun idea, and I just love that really Yeah. Really really Yeah. That's a good point. That's a really good point. It's kind of that that trope of Of happy artists can never really, like, experience their own work from, like, an objective standpoint because they they were there through the whole process of creating it. Like, You know, you write a song, but you can never experience what it's like to hear it in its full form for its final time. Yes. You had to go through every every single part you had to go through the bad and the good and and the frustration and all of that, and sometimes the final product can feel a little tainted because it's or not tainted but like where it's like man I put all this work in and it's like it's so good, but there is nothing quite like experiencing, like, someone else's, you know, music or anything like that, but if you can actually go through the process in a way that's fun and a game, you know, Like, you get to build your world as a game. You get to you get to actually play someone who can then become a character in that game too, like, even better. That's so fun. I love it. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I definitely think that. That's probably what I should have done with my elevator Something like that, he did a better job than me. No, I I still no, I still think you did great, though, and that's the thing, that's what I That's what I love about being able to talk with people too is it's a great way to even bounce ideas and and and narrow that down more, like, narrow Throw that elevator pitch down, narrow down that focus and things like that. Yeah. It's the game of that. The game is about the map. And and, you know, I've I've definitely had many times where I've I've had ideas and and and was able to, like, piece together information even about my own show, like, even it's focused through talking with people and being like even hearing their feedback on it and how they think about it, and so you know I always love to give my feedback on the games especially when I'm talking to the designers because it's like I can tell you how I'm viewing it in my mind. As you're telling me these things, I can tell you how it's sticking with me. It's sticking with me that you can play in your own world because that's just super unique and yeah. I love it. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. It's one of the great things about actually having these conversations and that kind of stuff and it's I've I've had such a good time because it's just One of my massive passions is just to be able to sit down and, like, have a conversation with you about c t r d. So, like, an hour and a half. Again So good. I could see why you started the podcast. Yeah. I mean, it all it all started with I I couldn't stop talking about them, and I I my mom was like it it was terrible. We were on a we were on a Vacation or not vacation, but we were going up to Ohio to visit some family. And then we were coming back down and I was, like, Super getting into the TTRPGs at the time and I couldn't stop talking about them and that was around the time I backed Lanneveem, so you know it was crazy, and I wouldn't stop talking about them along with, like, the campaign I was running and all of these things, and and my mom was, like, I love you, but you need to start a podcast because, like, I I I can't do this with you. Because, like, neither am I, Like, my mom's a huge, like, animal nerd. My my dad was, like, afar like, like, super into, like, farming and all of these things. So, like, neither of them were super nerds. Like, really the only outlets that I had were my siblings and some friends, and so it's, like, actually, a podcast is a good idea, and here we are. I love how you started it. That is so good. You just thought, yeah, I could do that. I'll start a podcast. And then it's like, oh, wait. I can start a podcast where I can focus it all around finding new games, like, finding out about new games and not have to, like, Like, what better? And then I can even help other people too. Like, it all just builds on itself, and it's like, okay, this is the best job ever. Yeah, that is fantastic, absolutely. I love it. And, actually, it's funny because you were mentioning how, like, you know, You started with TTRPG Dice, and now you're a game designer. It's, like, because I did the same thing. I was a dice maker, and it's, like Oh, really? Yeah. It's the pipeline. It is the pipeline. Absolutely. Yeah. And I love as well earlier you were mentioning that you hadn't made a game yet. They said yes, so I'm I'm waiting for your game to come out. Oh, yeah. It's it's there are potential ideas There there there are thoughts that have that have popped up when it's, like, oh, this would be an interesting idea for a campaign, and then it's, like, I don't actually don't know what's what game would work, hold on, and, like, it's it's it's there again it's the pipeline, you know, you start getting into the t t r p g's and then you making your own games, and then suddenly you're a game designer. It's like, oh, wait. What happened? How did I get here? How did I get here? Yeah. Exactly. Oh man, well if you ever make a game and you need someone to do it for free I'm happy to. Yeah, absolutely, no, I'm very we'll see what happens, I don't know 2024 is going to be interesting, which actually this episode is actually going to be coming out in 2024 which is a crazy thought, and so I think What we're gonna do here is I'm gonna say another time like hey guys, Cartograph is coming out on Kickstarter on February 6th, which is really exciting. It's going to be the Atlas version, which is one that we've been talking about, the one that's going to be the magnum opus, you know, it's going to have all these -Yeah. -not necessarily Not necessarily changes, but additions to the game to make it more replayable and and many more options and all of that, which I'm super excited about. And this episode should be coming out, late January, which is again crazy, so I think it's gonna be about a week It's, sorry the Kickstarter is going to be coming out in about a week after this episode, so if you guys want to check it out the link to the Kickstarter page is going to be in the description of this episode. Just head on over to it, click notify me at launch so that you can get notified, And just check out the game on Itch even, as well the previous versions, just to get a taste of it too, and all of that Fun stuff because, yeah, we're going into 2024 and you deserve new fun games, and so why not back games early and all that cool stuff. And so I think there's a there's a few questions that, no, we are starting to get wrapped up a bit here, but I'd like to ask, for the Kickstarter is there a, do you have a delivery date kind of estimated around when it's gonna be, like done and people are gonna get their games? So we're sort of aiming for, at the latest, August 2024. So we're as part of the, deluxe edition that we're doing, the deluxe pledge that you can do, my wife and I are still doing Doing some dice making and stuff. We're making some custom dice that you can use for the game. Oh, gorgeous. But, obviously, we hand make them, and you would know being a dice maker how long that takes. For sure. Wait. Yeah. The polishing. Oh my god. My wrist. With your arms a bit? Yeah. That's right. So because we're doing that, we're sort of we're limiting the number, to make sure that we don't get flooded. We're having to make a 1,000,000 dice and everything, but to make sure we have enough time to do all those dice and stuff. Mhmm. August is sort of the date that we're gonna aim for as the latest. Actually, I'd love to know what what what's fully gonna be in the deluxe edition. I know that you've mentioned the cards and the dice and and what's Yeah. So, yeah, cards, we're gonna do a set of dice. We're gonna my dad's a woodworker, so he's going to, make some custom, like, Red gum dice boxes that you get. So a really nice luxury sort of case to keep your dice in, as well as a, Journal that's gonna have, like, the character sheet printed on the front cover and stuff, so it's just like you're journaling. There was something else was there, or is that it? If you need to check if you need to check, you you are all good to do that too. I think that's it, and then, obviously, the book itself Mhmm. And the PDF. Yeah. Yeah. Roughly how long is the book gonna be? The book is, at the moment it's sitting at 85 pages and, It's gonna be anywhere between like 180 depending whether I add more stuff or a couple of stuff out, but, yeah, something around there. In in that area. And so about how, because I know that there's a lot of people who, you know, there's different, processes through you and, Kickstarters. I know there's people that go into the Kickstarter with the book 100% done. I know there's people that go to the Kickstarters where they have, like, a beta of it done and then they write it through. What what is your approach for this? I I definitely gonna try and have the book done, like, I'm sort of getting it wrapped up ideally before the end of the year, so By 2024, it should be sort of in its final state, and then I have a couple of months for editing and stuff. But, yeah, I've only ever done, like, one other Kickstarter, and it was a very stressful experience, and it definitely, made me realize I wanna have as much stuff done before the launch as possible. Oh, for sure. Think because, you know, I wanna Make sure that the game's done for my own sake as well. Like, even if the Kickstarter doesn't fund, I'm gonna write this game and finish it. So if I just get it done before the Kickstarter, Less stress for me. Exactly. Yeah. I love it. Perfect. No. This is great, because I I always love asking those questions, especially with games that are coming to Kickstarter. You know, Kickstarter isn't, like, your isn't just you're buying the game and then you're guaranteed to receive it. It's always gonna be, you know, investing in this in this project and so I always think trying to, ask some questions and see what the person already has as planned, what their plans are, and what people can even expect from the whole project, I think, is always fantastic. So thank you for answering those. No. Absolutely. Thanks for asking. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think, though, I'm going probably, I think, one last Question I have here before we fully wrap up, and it's all right what are you the most excited for with this whole Kickstarter and actually you know finishing this Atlas edition of Cartograph, what what are you the most excited for? Oh, that's a good question too. I think when I in the 1st edition of Cartagraf, I I got physical copies, eventually, like, printed, self published, and that was, like, a really another really surreal experience when I had finished this game and then I, like, Held a physical copy in my hands and I was like, woah, I made a book. So I think, like, when we get our, like, shipment in from from the printers of the Physical copies of the book, just opening that and, like, holding that in my hand is gonna be, like, a really cool experience to see. You know, a tangible thing that I've made. And then leading Leading on from that, seeing it in other people's hands, that's gonna be amazing too. This is gonna be that same surreal experience of like, wow. You know, how many people have a copy of my game, that's so cool. You know, fingers crossed if it all goes well. Yes, if it all goes well, which, hey, listeners, that is your responsibility for it to all go well. You know, you just listen to this basic, hour and a half pitch of this game and I am I but in seriousness, I I think that you guys should definitely go and check this game out. I definitely know that I'm going to even though, I don't have the most TTRPG budget right now, which is very sad because I just want to add more games to my shelf, I definitely am gonna be looking at it because I am so down for this whole idea for it, and I'm just very, very excited. And if you guys are interested, especially to experience your own world building, and gamify it so that it's more fun for you. Please go check it out again in the link of this episode it will be in the links it will be in the description of this episode, there we go, it's starting to get late and brains going a little fried right now, but but seriously, Brandon, thank you so much for coming on and talking about Cartograph with me. This is absolutely fantastic. I'm really really excited for the project, and I'm really excited for this to release even though again like, 2024 blah that's something to look forward to at least, so I'm very Thank you for having me, Willow, it's been amazing, it's been such a good time talking to you. Oh, so glad, and maybe and hopefully we can do Mason, which will be very exciting because I have been loving that game for like a year now, I read it, we're in Florida and when we got hit by hurricane Ian, like, we had like no power, and then, like, power for, like, the 1st day, then, like, no Internet for, like, a week. And so that was, like, my saving grace game is that I was reading I was reading through it throughout the whole time that there's no Internet, and then it's like, man, this game is great, and I trauma bonded to it, basically. Like Yeah. Yep. Good game to troll him a bond to you. I know, right? It's it's beautiful, and I I would love to do that, so we'll definitely talk about that more. If you guys enjoyed Brandon in this episode maybe he'll be in a future one, who knows, we'll see. Ideally, yes, but, yeah, I think we are going to end it here, so thank you so much everyone for listening, and thank you so much, Brandon, for coming on, and, good Bye.