Chatting w/ Grant Howitt & Grant Nordine! - DOUBLE THE GRANT, DOUBLE THE FUN!

Today we are switching it up on The RPG Goblin! This episode I bring on Grant Howitt the designer of amazing games such as Honey Heist, The Witch is Dead, Spire, Heart, and many many more games (that are mostly goofy and insane) and Grant Nordine from Game Master Monday to chat!

We have double the grant, and double the fun this episode as these Grants are a match amde in game philosophy heaven! 

Check out Grant Howitt and his games HERE:
https://x.com/gshowitt?s=20

https://rowanrookanddecard.com/product-category/game-systems/

https://www.patreon.com/gshowitt

https://gshowitt.itch.io/

Check out Grant Nordine and Game Master Monday HERE:
https://twitter.com/GameMasterMon

https://www.threads.net/@gamemastermonday

https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/game-master-monday

Transcript

0:00

Welcome everyone to the RPG Goblin, a TTRPG exploration podcast where we usually discover different games like every single week, but this episode's going to be a little bit different as we are actually going to be having, like, a proper interview with Grant Howitt. If you don't know who Grant Howitt is, I don't really know how that's possible well maybe you just don't know PTRPGs yet, but he is the designer behind great games such as like Heart, Heart the City Must Fall, right? Or this or no, The City Beneath. Close enough. You got it. Heart the City Beneath Spire, and then probably you might know him more through the game called Honey Heist, which is basically, you know, bear criminals, great game, goofy game, we love we love Grant's 1 page RPGs here, but, along with our special guest, Grant Howlett, we also have Grant Nordin from Game Master Monday as our sort of, like, cohost here for the vibes conversation guy. Yeah? It's a noob Saul Grant's episode, honestly, is what we're doing doing today. Willow double booked us. We both showed up. It's fine. Yeah. This was actually purely an accident. We were the calendar on. Oh, yeah. I guess you can be on the shirt. Yeah. Oh my god. Okay. A wink. See. I she was doing an interview, and I came in halfway through when she started over. I don't know what happened. No. Well, actually, really, the origin of this is when we were doing the, designing 1 shots episode. Grant Nordine absolutely loves goofy games, games that last 1 session, things like that, AKA exactly what Grant Howitt does perfect one page goofy games and was saying, like, man, it would be really awesome to actually talk to Grant Howitt, and so we made that possible. Yeah. What's up, motherfuckers? I read my mentions. Hell, yeah. Not to be a weird fanboy about it or anything. I've I've got very little on. I don't get asked to be on a lot of things. If I not not not to be overly sincere or anything, but I told Willow in that episode that, specifically, your game, the witch's dead, is what blew the doors open for me for, like, running RPGs and finding the flavor of shit that I like and was kind of one of the very early one shots I got to record for our show proper now. And, man, well, Lewis, I you might not hear a lot about, like, a specific RPG today. I'm like, this guy has written, like, easily 50 brilliant fucking things, and I'm just stoked to be in the same recording sesh. I've I've I'm actually over a100 now. I was gonna say a100, and then I was like, I don't wanna overshoot. No. It's no. It's well, I think we'd like, we just I just put out the 80th one page. That's crazy. I'm quite quite keen to stop. Oh my. Yeah. That's a point You know, like, we're not gonna be hearing about 1 type of game. We're gonna be hearing about probably a 1000000 types of games throughout this whole episode, so everyone just, like, have a pen and paper ready, write them all down, check them out. I'm not a note taking GM, though. Well, you have to be this time. Alright? Alright? You can keep notes one time. It's okay. That's season school. But yeah, no, I mean for me personally, Honey Heist I think was either the 1st or 2nd TTRPG I ever played outside of D and D. I played it with a with a group that I normally play D and D with. It was their 1st ever t t RPG for sure outside of D and D, and it went insane. I had a polar bear commit vehicular man slaughter, and I obviously Yeah. Yeah. And I can thank you for that. It was good. It was beautiful. I And I also played the Weststead and love it. I'm really excited to hear about that, and it's really nice to see that I've been able to permeate, like, with Honeywell, with Honeywell, especially. I've been able to permeate the the, the the underground of this fine hobby. Yeah. And it and it's become kinda like a game bong that gets passed around in in between, like What a prank card. In between sessions. And if, like, D and D is like dinner, I I'm not a I'm I'm not serving dinner. The after dinner bong? Yeah. Dinner bong. Should we return to the drawing room? And huff down some fat clouds? Fuck, yeah. Jeffrey, have you ever heard of that good kind? Yeah. I I That's so true, though. But, like, but, like, my so my experience of of role playing games, the first things which I really got exposed to because I I grew up in in the countryside in Portugal, and my folks move over there when I was, just going to secondary school or high school as you'd call it, and and, the my first exposure to RPGs was like free downloadable games in 2002. So, like, text files, HTML pages, that sort of shit. Right. So I hadn't read Dungeons and Dragons till I got to university, and I'd already been playing role playing games for a few years. But my first exposure to role playing games was just this sort of weird crusty strange thing and, like, and, like, I think I think I discovered big motherfucking crab truckers before I'd played d and d. Sorry. Are you aware? Oh oh, yeah. Big Motherfucking Crab Truckers, is kinda closer to my oeuvre, and it's and it's it's like a decade before I started. It's like, you know all that bubble gum? No. Oh, my days. Oh, so so I I I didn't make this shit up broadly, and it's and and, like, and it it it arises from how I first saw games, which was this weird sort of grubby strange strangeness on the Internet. And I'm really glad that I've been able to carry on doing that for new generation of people who were, like, oh, well, oh, well, role playing. You you gotta count your arrows. Right? And I move 30 foot in a row. Shut the fuck up. You're a fan. Oh my god. My heart a man after my own heart. I got 1 mechanic, and it's barely finished. For for those who aren't, I cannot believe I never made that connection. And they only I've only ever see I only ever saw it on Fortune, which dates Oh, that's So you don't ever saw I only ever saw it with all the names scrubbed off like they share my games. Oh my god. I love that. Oh my god. No one really knows who made Honey Heist. It's like a daily salad situation. Like like the the the first the first short game I put out was a game called doctor magnet hands. What's what's the like, one of the more popular ones is a game called doctor magnet hands, and I found it on foreshare.com, and they'd they'd downloaded it, taken out my name, and uploaded it again. Like Jesus. Like like I was some sort of, like, recalcitrant emperor. They decided they wanna strike a new mystery. Yeah. Oh, but, yeah. No big motherfucking crowd. Yeah. Yeah. Big motherfucking crowd truckers. I I'm not intimately familiar with this game, but I have been aware of it because it has the greatest intro line to maybe any RPG from that era ever. And it's if I'm I'm I hope I get it right and left or that big intro. But it's, like, bold print, one side of the page, and then it just says, okay. Here's the fucking deal. And then it just explains the rest of the game. That's so good. Yes. Every RPG should start like that. Yeah. I just found it. Yes. It's literally, okay. Here's the fucking deal, and then explains the rules of the game. It rocks. I have never heard about this game before, and I now have a new mission in life! Absolutely forerunner! I think it's not it's, it's maybe not as playable or accessible, as some of the more modern games it's like Laces and Feelings for example it's a very focused story you know you are big motherfucking crab truckers Yeah. But, but it it has that it has that concept of, like, you are something unusual, and we're barely gonna give you the rules to do it, and it only has to hang together for 2 hours. Yeah. Yeah. This connects, like, a lot of my favorite how it projects because like a lot of your stuff is kind of in that same vein, like you were saying, you are an odd thing and you must go on an adventure. Jason Statham's big vacation comes to mind off the pad for something like that. You shared that with me. Oh my god. Jason Satham's Big Vacation? I've never saw that one before. It's it's great. It's a a it's fantastic. The back page of that one, Grant. The back page of it? Okay. See, I'm I'm I have it in my library, and I've ran this game, but now I'm like well, like, for for the physicals, we put out, like, a secret back page for every single game. And the one for Jason Statham's big vacation is Bryan Cranston's big expansion. And we actually got him into write it. It's amazing. That's amazing. Like, it's weird because it sounds like he just sort of repeated a lot of the stuff from his Wikipedia entry. Mhmm. But he did a great drawing of Jason's dog, so he would reprint it. That rocks. I gotta get my hands on that. Right. I I love Jason Statham's Big Vacation. Yep. I I remember reading that game for the 1st time, and I was like, the title is funny in and of itself, and then you read the villain of the game. It's called the Wesley Sniper, and I'm like, this guy this guy fucks. I love this dude. This is so good, this is just like, like, I know at least for me, you know, it's been like within the last, like, year, Yeah. Like, year that I've gotten into TTRPG, so I'm still pretty new in this. And so being able to hear, like, all of this stuff that I that I don't think I would have been able to hear. I'm also my sincere approach of being like, oh my god. You haven't heard of x. Sorry about that, obviously. She's very small. Yeah. You're like you're like 12 years old. Yeah. And my apologies. That's not a cool thing. You have so much to look forward to. There is such there is there is just the Internet is a vast mine of bullshit, and there's so much so much fun there. It truly is. Yeah. No. I I I look very forward to all of the off the wall games, and yours are definitely the 1st introduction. Oh my. This is gonna be fantastic. So guys, I'll just say this very quick. If you're listening to this episode, just be prepared for it to be chaotic. I I Unfocused. Yeah. Unfocused, chaotic, and stupid. I've listened to some of your other shows. I don't what let's not the the the Will that be a surprise to your listenership? It's my fault. Not not really. A little bit. It's just what you expect at least for sure when Grant is on here. You're a fly. Great analogy about flies and giving shit. Yeah. Which we still need to make. My days. That was that was so useful, that analogy. I know you. That that action. Yeah. Just just, like, if if if if anyone didn't catch this, it was it was in the podcast which led to my arrival. But, Grunts, oh, it was what was an actor that you you that you were saying? Like, describe that, or was it was it just your in invention? That that was me off the dome. Oh, shit. If you let me talk for long enough, I'll eventually say something brilliant. Yeah. It's it's very clever, and I think, like like, like, your character is a fly on shit. What's what shit? What are you running after? And Yeah. That that's that's such a great way to go and, like, to go into a role playing game. Because so often, especially with, like, newer players or older players who were who were stuck in their ways, you'll start jamming, and they'll just be, like, oh, know. Oh, I'm gonna hang out over here. Oh, don't know. I'd be really passive, and it's boring. Mhmm. And if I've got a table full of people who were wildly trying to find the plot, all all I want. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, like, it's true. I make my bread and butter running 1 shots for my podcast. You know? So when I got to talk about it, I I had to sit there and, like, think about my philosophy a little bit, and it's it's pretty much just, like, keep the pacing up. And I'm just, you know, I'm just, like, talking to Willow about it, and suddenly the analogy comes into my brain. Maybe I recently watched A Bug's Life. I don't know. Do they do they eat a lot of shit in that film? There there's a there's a scene in A Bug's Life where it's, like, 2 flies in a bar, and, like, a waitress comes by, who ordered the poo poo platter? This, like, oh, you need to get this going nuts and a piece of shit. This is a PG movie for children. I'm like It's a great movie. You know? It's like, yeah, if you're if you're playing a 1 shot or, hell, if you're designing a 1 shot, you know, who is the fly? What sick do they need to eat before they die? It's it's golden advice. It truly Thank you. Thank you. I I I hope that to be my legacy as I when I leave this mortal coil one day, I hope my there there are many flying Ground shit. Flying nordies. Please. Oh, you're the shit guy. Yeah. Oh, you're the shit how can I do this? Shit guy. Guilty as charged. I just throw my hands up in the air. They're covered in shit. Like, yeah. Been practicing. I actually sell shit. I've got I've got some in the back of my car. If you need some, I'll be signing for that. All purpose shit. It's branded. Yeah. You can submit this on your plot or, you know, any sort of plot element. Apparently, you know Newer pranks. I think those are the 2 main things you use it for. So yeah. Ask me a question. I'll send it. You have any questions for me? Let's do an interview. Absolutely. So I actually well, you know, with this conversation leading up with, you know, Grant being known as the shit guy, I'm curious of what I'm curious. I'm I'm the piss guy. Thank you for asking. Right. Piss guy. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Got the opposite. It's good. Or not opposites Compliments. Momentary. Yeah. It was great because, like, you you you can't, like that that's crass. I was gonna say you can't take a shit without taking a piss. You're shit, Grunt. Do you know piss Grunt? I was in a shit with him once, actually. Sorry. No. I'm not I'm not pissed, girl. I'm sorry. Well, I lost him. Yeah. Yeah. No. You're Holy shit. Let's go. Let's go. Let's go. Yeah. Yeah. Let's go. So I'm actually wear a hoodie. I don't know. It's you laugh and it gets hard. Laugh. Yeah. Ask the question, Mila. Yeah. So I am curious, though, specifically of what you think about being, like, the Honey Heist guy, like, that being, like, the TTRPG that I like, you are the most known for. You know, if I hear your name, it's Honey Heist connected to it. It's not usually any of the other games, and I'm really curious of what you think about that kind of being your legacy at least right now. No. That's that's fine. It it it will be. Let's be honest here. It I mean, it it is and it will continue to be. Unless you need something even more off the wall that people just, like, are like, oh. You you know what? You know what? I think it is a it is a keen reminder and a humbling reminder of how important it is to get played on Critical Role. That yeah. Because That's actually a really good point. That all? That was that was in what was that? 22,017, I think, they played it. Mhmm. 18 maybe. I don't quite remember. And, I I got a message from Marisha Wright, one of the the the one of the 3 women in Cryptocoral, I didn't know I didn't know who the fuck she was, and so so a woman messaged me and said oh, I'm interested in running your game on on stream. Do you have any advice? I'm like, yeah. It's easy. Don't worry. Yeah. It's fine. Yeah. And, like, and and then, like, looked her up as, oh oh oh, Matt Mercer follows you. Oh, fuck. And Oh, Matt Mercer very follows you. Oh, yeah. He very follows you all the way down the altar. But she she was absolutely fantastic about it, and she, like, she was really keen to say, like, we're we're playing this game, and here's Grant, here's his patron. Here's where you can find it and, like, send her a t shirt with the game on it, and she wore the t shirt on screen when she ran it, and that sort of thing. And she, like, in every instant, she's always taken extra time to say, this is where you can get the game from, go and support the creator. Mhmm. And most people don't do that. Mhmm. And considering considering that she was, like like, the, oh, you you know what? I'll say it. Yogscast. Yeah. I'm coming to Yogscast, who Sorry. Beef in the RPG goblin. I'm like, it it don't matter so much these days. You know? You know? I've I'm I'm doing alright now. I'm not bitter about it. But, of course, many years ago, they played Honeyhose. They they played Goblin Quest, my first ever role playing game Mhmm. On stream. Apparently, they found it in the fucking woods, and all the names have been scratched out because they because they didn't say, oh, and by the way, you can buy it here from the struggling author. And so, like like, anyway, because Marisha was so good at that, that kind of resulted in in our success in our company. Now. And, like, we've got, like, shit. We we there's 10 people in the business. That's right. We're writing games, and most of us are full time. And it is absolute luck that that that and, you know, it's a good game and it works, and that's fine. But but Marisha found it, and she was like, yeah. Okay. I'll have that. And this benediction from the gods of the gods of TTRPG Internet came down. She touched me briefly on the forehead. And I was filled with a divine golden light, and then I had a career. And it's okay. You like, you know what? I I spend so I spend most of my time now and I'm really glad I get to do this writing big serious games. Mhmm. I did, me and Chris did Spire, we did Heart, and we've been working on the last two and a half years for a game on a game called Hollows, which is a started off as wouldn't it be fun to, to fight big monsters because every time you fight a big monster in a role playing game, it kinda just maths. Yeah. It gets a bit boring, And so we we iterated and iterated and iterated and went on. And then, like, I think, like, by 12th draft, I was like, ah, and it's about toxic masculinity from the 4th and then of course. Yeah. There it is. And then and then suddenly, I cared. And and, like, the, all all of these games are about, you know, they're about depression, they're about inequality, and they're about these enormous profound things that we feel, like, heart is again, but dying and having the best possible death and whole is again, but dying over and over and over until he becomes someone else's problem. Mhmm. You cut your your car when your character is In there. When your character is killed in hollows, you become a dungeon for everyone else to go into and murder you. That's so good. It's been Hollows ribs. Well, then you gotta play hollows. I I have not I have not heard of this one. Absolutely. Oh my god. I love monster hunting games, so absolutely. Well, I I hope you like 18 sixties England. Because that's that's that's, that's prob that's the closest we have to a to a historical type on our, what's the word, an acronistic setting. Anyway, point back, I write big serious games and they're about things, and, and, like, I, like, Chris and I try to do things where we can talk about the imposter syndrome and then put rules in that for the put pistol rules in about imposter syndrome. We don't say, hey. This is impostor syndrome guys. But Right. We want the game mechanics to make you feel like an impostor and that sort of thing. And, like, that's that's really that's that's clever work, and it's hard work. Mhmm. And Honey Heist, I dashed out on a bus. But but people love it, and it resonates with people. And I think that, like, sure, like, I can I I can write 250 page books, and, you know, we can have them produced beautifully, and we can get art made for them, and we have a whole team of people creating something absolutely incredible and then these works of art, but what matters is sitting down around a table and playing games, and Honey Heist has done that for, for thousands of people all over the world is they've seen this? They've seen this chicken scratch bullshit on a single bit of paper. They've seen this thing which which which, like, they downloaded off the Internet for free. Not from me, just someone else who decided to upload it. And they look at it, and they're like, well, it's can't be that. And they have a go. And it's fun, and it's free wheeling, and it's not, oh, okay. Well, the door has this many hit points. Yeah. And then, oh, there's 7 goblins in the other room. No. It's brain empty. You run it. Like, I the when I ran it for the 1st time, it was after I didn't get, like, any sleep. I had no time to even, like, really look at the game past, like, what the rules were. And then I got into it, and we played. And it was amazing. You can waste a lot of time by reading a game before you run it, I find. Yeah. Preach. So so I am I am thrilled and excited and a bit humbled to be to be the part of to be that 1st step into role playing, and especially that 1st step into role playing where people are, like, oh, what is this? Mhmm. Yeah. Oh, what can it do? Yeah. And that's and, like and then and then maybe they never play again. Mhmm. Or or or maybe they're like, oh, I'll try Dungeons and Dragons. Oh, this works for me. I'll buy every Dungeons and Dragons. Fine. I'm sure. But I re I really hope that this that the that this opens up the world of playing, but I've been able to open up the world of playing pretend with people and letting awesome steam and having fun with with your friends or people who might become your friends because I've made every friend I've had as a GM. I find people that I like the look of and then I, like, oh, do you wanna come to a place where I control all the social? I have all that. And and and if you do it wrong, I can ask you to leave. And the good ones, I, I slowly stopped playing Dungeons and Dragons with them. That's kinda And why do I feel seen? Finally, I have complete control of what happens in the social interaction. Not that I like dating. I'm I'm pretty extroverted, but it's also like I'm also a little narcissistic, so it's a really lethal combination for a GM. I I was I was gonna just, like, add on because, like, for the for those who don't know, Grant does a lot of writing for, Rowan, Rook, and Descartes Mhmm. And, which I've been following for, like, the hottest of minutes because I am just so stoked for Eat the Reich to come out. Mhmm. Speaking of big games with big important themes, Eating Nazis. Smooth smooth brained one shot bait. It was described as on the Internet, and that's Really? Accurate. Yeah. Really? Yeah. I think that I I don't I don't think they were cruel, but they weren't wrong. As a smooth brained person who runs 1 shots for a podcast, it worked. It got me. I was hooked immediately. But I mean, like I I said it before, like, I I got my start doing RPGs by running D and D, and the number one thing I kept thinking as I learned how to play D and D incorrectly for a long time, because I refused to read any book for any reason about that game, I was just like, man, this is so fucking complicated, and I don't know if this hobby is released for me. And then I found the witch's dead. And I was like, oh my thank fuck. And, like, I I I'm I'm I'm like, the so Witch's Edge is the first one I ever did. That's my, like, my first ever one page game. It's an experiment. It's so good. I love that game. It's a little OSR game, but, like, it's it ties into the, like, to the old school renaissance or revival or whatever you wanna call it in, like, like, everything's really hard, and you have to cheat to win. Mhmm. And Yeah. I think every every single game of The Witch Is Dead without fail, they've tried to kill the witch hunter by summoning dinner in his mouth, or, like, or, like, or, like, by by because, American parent really upset. Like, I and then and then you have to go and find the witch hunter, rip out his eyes, bring them back to her corpse so so she comes back to life. And I will say, I got complaints about about about the language. Can you get any complaints about the the eye gouging or the murder or the flight merging? USA. USA. We're cool with gore. We're cool with sex stuff, but the minute you start cussing, the minute you start cussing great game for for me to play with my kids, but could you maybe replace the fucks in the 1st paragraph with the weird good one? Read it. Sir, she has to eat eyes. What are you talking about? Just fucking yeah. Yeah. Broadly, the, like, the the gag there is that you're given a mission to go and kill someone, and you don't have what you need to do it, and so you have to cheat. And, like, all the spells you have are, like, read book or open door or make plant grow, and what you need is, like, you know, throw knife, and so you have to come up with with interesting uses for these for these powers. Oh, it's a it's it's convincing the GM that stuff works. Yeah. And I've I've I've gone back and forth on OSR a lot, like, throughout my career and throughout my time as a player, but I think there's something really quite charming about saying, like, okay, you have to you have to you have to get through this one by the skin of your teeth, and you have to, you know, you have you have to work out a trick to overcome what I've done rather than, oh, I'm gonna turn up and roll dice and do the thing. I suppose to say Honey Heist Yeah. Which is there's no working out tricks. Mhmm. That's not the game is not a puzzle to be solved. No. There's no it's, it's it's, there's the the dice barely show. Like, the dice don't really affect the story that much. It's just high kinetic bears knocking back and forth. And if anyone doesn't know too, and I just think it's the funniest thing, is the 2 stats in Honey Heist are just bear and criminal too. Like, it's it's it's real it's really easy. Early influencer lasers and feelings? Who who's to say? Actually Well, it's it it mhmm. I is it wasn't Lazers and Feelings first? I was gonna say Yeah. Yeah. It's almost like I didn't realize I was doing this. It's almost like I made Lazers and Feelers it's almost like I I made Lazers and Feelings slightly more approachable by removing the bit where you have to pick a number and then roll under or over that number because it's really hard for players to wrap their heads around. But it's just like like, hey, you got criminal and bear armor. Great. I've I've ran a lot of lasers in the field, and I've Yeah. Me too. And and and no matter what, no matter who it is, how seasoned they are, how seasoned I am at running them, it's always, wait, which one is over again? Yeah. It is like, there's something about, like, having the core of your character be a number from 2 to 5. Yeah. It doesn't land. But if I've got, oh, I've got I've got 4 4 lasers and 2 feelings. Cool. Okay. I I can understand that. I can see that. Mhmm. Yeah. But, no, lasers and feelings was very much, like it it uses this it pretty much uses the same system, except mine's got a bit of an arc in it, and it's not as John I I really appreciate John Harper's way of, scene setting. Yeah. I think that, like, and and and, like, and giving you little arcs in a session like his game lady Blackbird, does which was again, like, oh, that was came in 2008, I think, years years ago, that has character arcs in a one shot supported by the XP system. Mhmm. And, like, that blew my fucking mind, Wesley. Wait. Hold up. It's yeah. It's so clever. Hold up. I gotta find it. Like, just just just to really briefly outline it. Your character has a number of keys, and every time you tap a key, you get 1 XP. And these things might be, like, so so the captain has, has the has the key of the good captain. And this means that every time you, you help out your crew or you give up something so that they can so that they can succeed, you get 1 XP, and you spend XP to both level up your character and reroll dice. So it's kind of a potency thing as well. Mhmm. And then you can do that as long as you want. And once per game, you can break a key and get 10 XP, completely act against it, and never access it again. And for and for the captain, it's like, right, rat out or betray 1 of your crew. And it's just such a clever way of saying, right, this is normal, and then it changed. And it and it incentivizes the it incentivizes you to do it. It pushes you into a situation where you need this XP, and you need this dice to make it look so clever. Yeah. John John John is absolutely incredible game designer, and the only reason for in the dark too. Right? That's amazing. Dark. He did he did ghost lines. I love ghost lines. He did he did Aegon. Oh, yeah. The only the only reason why I am able to stand alongside him is because I put out 6 or 7 times as many games as he does. John Harper rolls up to the Internet once every, like, 2 or 3 years and go, I've I've made you a perfect gem. And he throws it. Blades. Fucking blades came came along, and it was like, oh, what if apocalypse world was accessible and set in dishonored? I I just I just com it just completely changed, and and everyone was doing Blade Tax. Yeah. And and everywhere now. He's he's absolutely tremendous, and, yeah, I just try and rely on way of fire. Have you ever run into, like, anyone hacking one of your systems? Because we talk a lot about, like, gadgets and feelings hacks and blades hacks, but, like Oh, there's a ton of plenty heist hacks. Yeah. Oh, I know the honey heist hacks for sure. Like, something doesn't get that big without my fucking opinion with it. Is, crimes. B Gay Du Chorus? B Gay Du Chorus. Yeah. Which is a which is a game of funny host and one and, like, you can play either a bear or no. A real bear, an actual an actual physical Ursus bear, and it's set set at a pride parade, and you, you know, you you have to cause chaos, I think, amongst the the rainbow corporate, floats. But, I I think people have done some hacks. Like, I there's been buckets of funny heist hacks, and, like, I I get a lot of translations of my games, like, so a lot of lot of people translate them or pop the ones into all, like, the ones which they really like into other languages. But now, like, it's not there's not a huge community around my 1 page games, if the other thing. And I think, like, for hacks to develop, you need to have people discuss the rules. Yeah. And once a community arises, then people are like, oh, here's an interesting thing we can play with and do this right here. And every 1 page game is like, there's nowhere to go and talk about my 1 page game. I don't I don't have a Discord or anything because it's not the fucking talk about. It's it's it's it's there. It's done. Go play it. But that it's it's it's it's not that deep. Yeah. It's not that deep. It's it's it's literally on 1 page. You don't there's no other discussion that has to happen there. And, like, other than, like, flavoring it in different ways. Yeah. And, like, and you can write it and you can put extra things in, and you can mess around with the stuff. But, really, like, I think for for hacks to happen, you need to have people going, well, I reckon I can do this as opposed to, well, this is finished. And I think Yeah. Even with 1 page games, there is a community, but it's more the community of, like, look how cool these games are versus, like, I'm going to dissect the game. Yeah. Also, you can't make money out of 1 page games is the other thing. And, like, and, like, and, like, and, like, I do alright. I've got I've got a pretty robust Patreon, which is very nice, but that's not that's not what's paying my mortgage. And because there's no way of, like, getting money and then supporting supporting a community around that, I think the and and and and because the the barrier to entry is so low and the there's such a huge wide range of voices that the community is very spread out, and it's like, oh, I've heard of 3 of these Yeah. As opposed to, oh, well, oh, welcome to the 1 page games community. Here's the 10 you have to read and do the thing. I you know? You should get it. We're all playing games. Mhmm. You made that joke, and my friend's like, oh, what what the 10 games you have to play? I I'm Yeah. Actually I'm always thinking of lists. I was going to say, like, you know, the community is a big part of it, but I also think it's a test of it to, like, how good you are at, like, just knocking a setting out of the park to the point where people aren't gonna fuck with it. You know? It's just like Hey. That that's very kind and a very generous way of looking at right foot closed off set of rules. I just I just finished reading well, not finished reading, but, like, not like I was by my fireplace smoking a pipe or anything. But, like, I I I I was I was reacquainting myself with a lot of my favorite Howett titles, and I remember that captain swan hands exist where I I That's that's that's deranged. I don't know whether that works. Can you just find out? What is So has this arc. Oh, sorry. It's your game. No. How they talk about it? I it's it's barely my game. Like, I, I've I've wrote it with, with Jiang Shen, during I I did a year of collaboration with different people, and Jiang's done some really fantastic games. And most of what her games are are the sort of itch. Io heartbreaker, go into the woods and tell a tree that you never got on with your dad sort of thing. And so I was really inter and and, like, and, like, but but she does the good ones. And so I was like, alright. What can we do? How can we like like, which one of us is gonna break first? And it was her. Because because because I turned off and I was like, I've got an idea for a game where you play superheroes and your superpowers, your arms are swan heads, and you have to hold down an office job. And and she's like, yeah. Yeah. Sure. I I know a lot about I know a lot about birds. That's so good. And it's, like like, systemically, it's deranged. It's got, like, like, it it it reads like a solo RPG that other people are watching you play. That's where it's like, there's there's there's animal facts put in there to find out. Of course. Of course. It's a 1 page game, which is an 8 page booklet. Sorry. Sorry. No. Sorry. 7 page, which is a challenge because paper doesn't work that way. Don't get me started on the numerical counting thing again. That's insane. Swan had his arms. I just Yes. So so so your 2 hands are And they're they're swans. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I got you. Alright. Yeah. I I believe I believe the, the intro line to that game is fighting crime would be a lot easier if I didn't have swans for hands. Which, you know, is pretty up my alley. Yeah. Yeah. Like, fair. It's so up my alley, it's holding drugs in my alley. I need to play this now. Holy shit. To to to piggyback off of what Grant is saying, though, Jeon Jeon Shim is legitimately a genius. He wasn't kidding when he says she writes the like, because because there's a lot of there's, like, 2 flavors of of of lots of itch games and it's like super emotional, deal with your demons, various levels of handedness, light to heavy, and and then there's the shit Grant makes where it's like, here's the most insane thing I can think of. And match made in heaven is is that is that game is what I'll say, but I've I've been following Jeon Shim for years, and she's legitimately a genius that makes beautiful fucking games. Hell of a brain on her. Very, very clever. And, like, and, like, it was it was really lovely talking to her. Like, like, we immediately hit off, but I'm, like, I just I I kinda wanna do video. I kinda wanna do voice calls and just sort of absorb how smart she is. The same with, Jay Dragon. It's like it's like, oh, you're what's coming next, and I'm I'm I'm just filling in time until you get up to speed, basically. At the end of the end, look look at Jade Dragon now. I wonder how it's been a smash hit. Oh my god. And what's the what's the bed and breakfast one? Yaziva. Yeah. Yeah. Bed and breakfast. That one looks so freaking good. The the the indie community rocks. You know? Yeah. Like, it you know, we we we partner with a lot of game creators for our show, and, like, nothing tickles me more than when we, like, tag them that we're playing their game for a podcast, and they get so geeked about it because, like, it doesn't happen for them too terribly often. We just ran, I don't know if you know Wendy Yu, Grant, but we we played her game apotheosis janitors recently on the show, which is a game about, a group of cultists coming together to hide the evidence that their leader was once a mortal person. So it's like like, are are the person who kept telling us was a god has recently ascended to godhood, but he had things like a mortgage and a day job and, like, friends in real life, and we have to figure out a way to get rid of the evidence of all bad shit so no one knows he was once mortal. It's so good. It's so it's such a fun game to play, and, like, we we tagged her in it, and, like, she was, like, our biggest hype man while we were putting the show out. And it's like, it's a fucking support your local in indie community. Wizards of the Coast will never retweet you, but Wendy, you and Grant Howitt will. Exactly. Which I do wanna mention very quick that you have, you have brought up your Patreon a few times, and that's where you mainly You've been mentioning this a lot, Rome. This is right. We've had to edit out a lot of you shaking with a 10 pound with the coins in it. Hey. Hey. Nothing wrong with that. No. No. But, like, you you release a lot of wonderful stuff. Right? Song. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I had a break over the summer, well, to work on hollows. But well, sorry. I was intended to work on hollows, but actually what I did was I was just really depressed for 6 months, which was that's that's the trick. Yeah. Thanks. So I I earned less money, and I was sad. But, yeah, I put out I've I've put out 1 a month, for fucking years. And so now I as I said, now we're up to 80. So there's there's there's a few in there. Bananas number. Something something for everyone, I hope. And so I I am curious of like, I know that you have a ton on your itch. Is there a lot of crossover there? Are there things in the Patreon specifically that are, like, exclusive? You can only get them there. I I kinda half assed it, if I'm honest with you. I never really I never really got the, the the whole sort of, like, oh, I need and and this this is Patreon. This is a special place to talk to your to talk to your fans. I think, like, they had they set up a live streaming thing very briefly called throne, and, like, and, like, that's definitely not the relationship I have with people who buy my games. Yeah. But, so, like, there there is an exclusive thing, which is on I think it's, like, 5th for for for 15 quid $15 a month. So that's $15 per sheet of paper, which is very expensive as far as paper goes. I I send them a physical and it's got the back page printed on it. Mhmm. And that's generally, like, an extra game or some jokes or it's often just jokes. One of them just a drawing of a witch I thought was cool. Fun stuff. Fun extra stuff from from an artist you want to support. Yeah. And then, like like, maybe, like, a couple of years after we do that, we then release them as bundles so you can get, like, all, like sorry. The 1st bundle has 13 the 1st year's bundle has 13 games in it because I really liked one of the games I wrote I think I wrote a game in the next January, and then I'm putting that in fucking. And Yeah. And who's in the studio? And so now every bundle has 13 games. I make my own rules. Some of these 1 page games are, a 4 30 page booklets. Hell, yeah. Hell, yeah. That's so good. Oh, man. I I never I I never got the, I never quite worked out how to engage with the community in that way and or or or, like, just to have right, this is, like, this is Grant's place and come and hang out with Grant. And I think, like, working with Chris and with Maz and with the other people are a day. That's Roan, Rick and Decker. We've oh oh, fuck. Oh, I've come terribly. You forgot the end of my sentence. Oh, no. It's It happens. It's okay. I had to remember the name of my 2 best friends, and that's a different one. And then all other words disappeared from your mouth. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's it's fun to watch yourself on camera too as you can see the information leaving your brain as you're talking. Like, oh my god. They're they're just watching me do this. And and you feel like Indiana Jones on a cliff. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. Come on. Come on. And this and this and this the the idea is just sashaying away through a side door. Farewell? See you later, handsome. No. I'll see you at 2 AM when you're trying to sleep. Good good work smacking all that weed dipshit, and she's gone. Get ready to send an email the minute you wake up saying how sorry you are. I've been there I've been there on this show. It's just mid sentence. Like, what the fuck am I talking about? I'll just keep going until I get back there. And that's how the shit in flight analogy comes. Yeah. You know? It's like, if you let me talk for long enough Yeah. You start you start floundering, but don't let other people realize. This is this is all to say. We're you're good. Yeah. You're good. Yeah. Cool. But I I I don't remember what we were talking about or anything. So we should go to the next question. Yeah. Well, I I wanted to ask you because you were a scant hour into this interview. Like, bash on to question 3. Sorry. This is this is the usual RPG goblin Yeah. Situation. I like it. It don't work. It don't work. You're good. The the question is wanna ask, Grant? Sorry. No. I was gonna say, like, because you you turn out, you know, a 1 shot, a 1 page game once a month Mhmm. Which is insane to me. Is there, like, an inspiration while you go down more than often? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. So there's there's this button on the Internet. Right? When I push it, I get 2 and a half grand. And all I have to do is write 1 page of content, and so that motivates me to do it in usually a little in between. Fair? Ah, yes. The if I don't do this, I don't get push the button. Motivation. Hey. Hey. It's one of my favorite buttons on the Internet. Same button. It's it's a real I I could recommend it that everyone gets one. They're great. But, and and I will also say, I don't keep that money. That Fair. That that money pay that, like, the, like, the the dumb games about bears pay salaries of, like, our finance manager? As it should. Yeah. So So it's really the pay the finance manager, Ben. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And, like, and, like, finance manager gets paid a lot more than me, like, they're much more skilled than I am. And so, like, I mean, like, and I mean, and that's that's that's exaggeration, but I think, like, there is a there's a professional obligation, there's a rhythm to it. And now that, like, there are a lot of people I'm not gonna say relying on me because I rely on them, and we are we've set up this business to hopefully mean that me and Chris can write games rather than run a business. Mhmm. Yeah. Right. Because we had to run a business for a while, you know, and and and and Miles does Miles does most of the business running stuff, the 3 of us. But what I would like to do with oh, fuck. That's the end of the sentence again. You got it. You got it. You're good. Hang on. Hang on. No. There is a rhythm to it, and that means that, like, all well, like, we're relying on each other. And one of the things we do to rely on each other is, like, the finance manager says, okay. Well, here here are the reports, and here are the things, and here's how much tax we owe. And I have to make up a thing about theirs. Yeah. And that's and that's how that slots in. Yeah. Quite outside of, like, quite outside of the sort of the the grim capitalist motivation. Necessity of it. Yeah. I have I have a lot of ideas for things. And, like, we we make our bread and butter, to to use your phrase, out of writing big books because you can sell a big book for more money, you can support it with a line, you can build a community around that, and that means and, like, and if someone comes up to your stall and buys a single £2 1 page game, like, that's actually costing us more money to be there than we're making off the sale. Right. So, I I I caught on what have you. So I'm much, these give me an opportunity to to release Steam, and so I'll have an idea for a game, or I'll have an idea for a mechanic, or I'll have an idea for something, and it's like well I need to get this out my system now, like right now, otherwise it's gonna turn otherwise, it's gonna turn into goats of spire. Okay. Oh, wait. Hold on. Let him cook. Yeah. Yeah. Well, okay. Now listen. So okay. Oh, I'm okay. I'm sorry, everyone. Just to explain, Spire is a is a, grim, espionage revolutionary game about post colonialism class struggle, about you play a cell of legal ministers of a forbidden religion who were trying to overthrow the government with dark dark magic and like hacked together religious rituals, and I wrote an appendix in it called Rumored Goats of Spire because I had a really good idea for some goats. Of course. I thought oh I could come with some goats. Yeah. And so I wrote this and I was like oh Chris I want to put this in like in like the like the the garden district like like, the the food creation district because it's like absolutely not. Like, oh, can I put it in the book? You can put it you can put it in put it in his appendix 5. You can put it in the book, but it's not gonna be where you want it to be. Yeah. And, like, can I get a drawing of a goat? Can you fuck? And and we went we we printed it, and everyone fell for the goats. Everyone loved the goats. Of course. It was it was the equivalent of when you stupid shit. They do. Dumb shit. They do. But, like, it's it's it's like, oh, Spyder, the RPG about goats. It's like, no. No. No. They're just in it. No. It's about it's about post colonial haiti. It's not about deep shit. It's not about counts. So so I need I need to work through I need to act as a pressure release Mhmm. For these dumb ideas, and so that's that's really cool. Yeah. And that means that I can find something that interests me and obsess about it and basically rotate it in my head till it catches fire, for for a bit. And some weeks some some months it's easy, some some months it isn't like, I just put a game called Executioners, which is a game where you have to delete the game text as you play to win. Love it. You play you play a Word Wizard. Yeah. And the like that was initially space doctors colon doctors in space, which was which is which is Grey's Anatomy, but you're aliens. Yes. And I think I I spent 2 weeks bouncing off that thing and turning up to meetings being, like, lads, I can't get these fucking doctors to work. It's not like like, the the dramatic arc is not right. It's just a numbers game. And And and so This is an actual plot of Grey's Anatomy, I think. Yeah. Probably. Yeah. Yeah. And, like, 1 and and so I threw out, I'm like, right. I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna make a game where you you have to you have to murder Faye in nightclubs. Like, oh, okay. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. That's interesting. I'll throw that around. It's like, no. No. No. No. And then eventually, like like, at the last minute stumbled out with Executioners which I started writing in November. So it's not a quick process, but it's really nice to have the opportunity to sit down and do something weird and also take the time to craft it. Yeah. And I think the fact that it's the the fact that there's that button which makes 2 and a half grand come out the Internet means that I do take it a little more little bit more seriously, but also I try to I try to take everything I do with a yeah. You know what? This is gonna sound weird. I try to take everything I do seriously. Yeah. No. I get that. And and, like, and what I'm doing is silly and what we're doing is daft, but there is a measure of, like, well, it has to work as a game, and it has to be explainable within a sentence, and it has to resonate with people in such in such a way that they'll pick up on it. And so there are other considerations and I think that it's it keeps my hand in certainly. But it's, I think pretty sure I've run out of ideas about 2 years in. Yeah. And so and so I'm I'm I'm I'm something to really open my brain to the Zeitgeist, and find it. But, yeah, I peaked I peaked 4 months in. Useless. And you just keep trucking regardless. Just been dragging this bear corpse around. You guys won't play Honey Heist? Hey. Yeah. No. It's yes. Yeah. It's me. That grunt that grunt. You don't know who the I mean It's it's fucking fascinating because I'll I'll go to cons and people and, like, and, like, it's always it's always well, it's not always because most people don't know who the fuck I am, but people come up to the car people will come up and, like, they'll say, oh, he's spy. That sounds interesting. Like, oh, hang on. Criminal. Honey house. Honey, are you Grant Howard? And they all they all say the full name. Are you are you oh my god. Are you Grant Howard? I don't know what that accent was. Was was that was that was that Australian? Straight mate, are you Grant Howitt? Throw a d 12 on the barbie, but but it's it's it's it's very strange to be to be clocked in that way because, like, I don't. It's the it's the RPG industry, no one knows who the fuck anyone is. Yeah. It's a complete inside baseball, and no one knows what anyone looks like. Yeah. Yeah. Like like like the fact that me and you, Graham, are are chatting about John Shim. Like, Joe Shim is one of is is one of the greatest voices in our industry and an absolute trailblazer. Really clever doing fascinating things. No one knows who the fuck she is. Yeah. And it's it I think that's just, like, the nature of the beats of the TTRPG industry too or, like, any game, really. Like, any, like like like movies and music, like, it's all about who made it, but with, like, games, it's all about, like, is it fun? Yeah. Like and and you think of, like, how far the creator's role is from the experience of a game. So, like, you know, you've got Dennis Villeneuve, get getting angsty about about people watching Dune on their telly. Oh. And Yeah. Fuck off, Dennis. We're in a pandemic. But The I know I watched on my TV. It was nice. It was fine. Yeah. You know what? You know what? I I didn't have my shoes on. I couldn't do that at the at the cinema. Point being, Villanuev gets all pissed off about the way people like, I like David Lynch. Like like like, watch watch a film on your fucking phones. Yeah. I work. They're like yeah. Yeah. I'm not I mean, I've hey. Listen. I'm sure David's doing a lot of work, but part of that involves watching films on big screens. That's his job. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or, like, when Chris Nolan is like, we're only releasing Oppenheimer in these kinds of theaters so that when the bomb goes off, your skin melts, and it's like, fuck. I can vibrate through your entire body. Spite. I'll watch it on my phone. I'm gonna I'm gonna have someone describe this to me. Sorry sorry. I'm actually it was a flipping joke, but that is, that's how games work Yeah. Yeah. In the in the Yeah. In the I've come up with the idea of Spire, let's say, you know, we describe as big big moody setting, and then we put the rules on top of that. And then the the end experience, the player experience, which I think, like, there's more players than there are GMs, so let's say that's that's that's the more common experience. Mhmm. It's filtered through the rules, the GM, how the GM was feeling that day, the GM's understanding of my of of of both mechanical and and also everyone else at the table, and what they were doing, and and what they put forward. And so we really have very little say in what happens and whether or not, like, it's very easy to write a bad game. But one of the things about, like, a good game is that you don't notice it being good. Mhmm. And like and if it's if it's really exciting, and it's really sort of gathering your up if it's doing what it's supposed to be doing you shouldn't see the joints unless you're an absolute dork, and maybe, like, you guest on or run a RPG podcast. And so and so, like, and so you're into this, like, oh, that's interesting. Oh, I love what they I love what they did with the d threes there. This reminds me of Vincent d Baker's earlier work. Hold up. D threes? How did they get me one of those? Same. I want 1. Just a d 6 in half. I know, but it would be cool to have a It's a it's a 2 dimensional triangle, and you spin it like a like a like a 2 d spinner. I don't I don't I don't get in with this with this fucking dice fetishism bullshit. No. Me neither. Just like, it's just it's I'm I'm about like, back when I worked in an office, I wasn't excited about the photocopier. It's just something I had to use, and that's kind of where I'm at with dice. Yeah. I I feel the same way. I was asked in an interview recently, like, if I could be any kind of dice, what would I be? Oh, no. Now that now that's a question. Yeah. But let's see. I be because I am who I am as a person, I didn't pick, like, one that exists. I'd be I wanna be, like, a physical d 100, and, like, it's it looks like a golf ball. Yeah. You're just smooth. Like, each individual divot has, like, a number in it. I wanna be a one to one scale, d 100. I wanna write all the numbers across the. And then none of this roll 2 d tens and do percentage shit. You you pull out, like, a fucking sphere and roll it. Yeah. That's the problem. Throw me on the table, and I'll tell you what you got. You have to whack me with a golf club, and then wherever I land on the green is the number that comes up. Well, I what kind of dice would you be? And bonus points if you say one that exists. Bonus points if I say Well, I would like to just be a d two, which most people think is just useless. Isn't that a coin? Yeah. Yes. A fucking coin. Yep. I okay. So I used I used to make dice, actually. I used to make dice and sell them, so I get the whole dice thing. I have plenty of dice just Oh, yes. Sorry. I I I wouldn't I don't wish for anyone else to be like, oh, I I really don't want you to be like, oh, I shouldn't should mention the fact that I like dice now that Grant said I was an idiot for liking dice. No. Like like You didn't say that. That's why I was thinking it. They're they're very they're very they're very pretty things, and I think that one of the, like, one of the few tools we have to connect with role playing games is our dice service, and it's it's, like, well, these are the most important objects in the fictional world we're building, And these these are the the this is your this is your lever for interacting with the game, so, yeah, might as well have nice ones. Yeah. But at least for me, like, going from, like, dice to, like, I was only playing D and D and then, like, I had I was I definitely had a dice obsession, and then getting into TTRPGs, I'm like, it doesn't matter what I have for dice, it doesn't matter, I just love the games. I read I read the actual ttrpg books for fun. That is the reader. Yeah. I I'm I'm the one who's You're our biggest you're our biggest and most important market. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, I Big Doric. I have Doesn't doesn't matter if you play them. I have die right here. I I Very good. I I see you've got I see you've got The Zone behind you as well. The Zone. The Zone's fantastic. I can't wait to a good game. I know. I can't wait to play it. Was clever. I I'm so mad that I have no, like, in person friends. I will, like, play it with me. Alright, Grant. We gotta go to wherever Willow is and stay out for, like, a weekend. Speak speaking from experience, you'll get used to it. I I have a I have a whole bunch of, like I I grew up doing, like, all the, like, theater stuff in my hometown. Uh-huh. So, like, a lot of the people that I play in person with are just, like, actors who I've told that just come to my house. Like, you're just gonna act with me for a little bit, and there's gonna be an element of chance to it when they get into it. You know? Like, if if you want someone to play with, like, just go to the local community theater. I've I've got a little experiment coming up. We're putting putting together a black box. We're gonna we're gonna try a few things. Yeah. Yeah. Really avant garde shit. You'll love it. Have you got director for this? You'd like I just want. It's me. It's me. It's me. You know me. Yeah. Yeah. Talk, and then you kiss the elf. Mhmm. Yeah. We we did a miniseries on our show, and it's like the whole it's like it's like me and my sister who normally handle the whole podcast stuff, and then it's, like, literally, like, my my friend who does a lot of local theater here and my friend who's a comedian, and it was their 1st time playing a D and D campaign ever, and they were just fucking hilarious on it. Mhmm. It also helps that I have no idea how to run D and D. I just got my vibe. No no one runs it right. It's not supposed to be right. No. No. No. The fun the fun is ignoring the rules. That's the Yeah. Yeah. You you feel a bit cheeky. Yeah. I'm being illegal. My my main point here, Liz, if you want friends to play with, just go, audition or do a show with your local community theater, and then you'll just find a whole bunch of dorks. Or a pair of these. I guess, these classes. I've heard that. Well, I did I still have I still have, I wake up. You know how, like like, you'll say something hideous and, like, you'll wake up 7, 10 years afterwards. I I still I still flash back, I'm gonna say once every couple of months, to the Facebook post I made inviting everyone I knew to my graduation show at 1st year improv. Uh-huh. And I would like to I I would like to really thank all my friends because not a single one of them came. Wow. And and they were smart for not doing that because it was a shit show. It was it was it was 1st year graduation. Yeah. Yeah. It was terrible. It was unwatchable. Improv doers out there, never invite anyone to your 1st time performing it live for any reason. Your 10th time. Look. Unless you're fucking bench sports, don't. Hey. It's 5 No. I mean, just don't invite people, to be honest. But I will say I will say for, like, from a player perspective, crucial. Mhmm. Oh, yeah. Well, it's like, crucial. Obviously, people can do it without, but it's really it's really useful to have the idea of, like, no no, like, there's there's a story here, and we'll find it. Mhmm. Yeah. And we're all, like, we're all going to put things in together, and we're all gonna build stuff, which is kind of what I try to skew to with the, web page stuff. Like like, everything's vague and we trust you to fill in the details. And I learned a great deal about that from from from doing improv classes. And I'm, again, no friends. Who needs them? Who couldn't just get in the way? I'm gonna send go to my window because I'm gonna smoke a cigarette. You're good. Carrie, I'm talking. I care. Just keep going. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No problem. Right? Filling. Filling. Filling. Filling. Filling. Filling. Filling. Filling. Filling. Okay. I need I need a location. Anyway. Anyway. Any location. National. Submarine. Damn it. Not that one. That was the wrong answer. This is off topic, but I went to a Wayne Brady show one time, and, he was looking for that exact thing, wanted a setting. Mhmm. So from, like, the cheap seats, I stood up. I'm, like, 22. I stand up, and I scream as loud as I can. Mausoleum. And he, like, looked into the raptors and saw me. He's like, no one has ever said mausoleum at this point. I'm doing that. No. I was like, not Go. Not funeral. Like like a funeral contractor. Perfect. Right? So much comedy. Like a Harold Quinta play. But no, that's a place where expressly everyone is dead. Yeah. Right. Yes. Nothing else to rip off from. You created white room. You created a core memory for him. Yeah. It was a core memory for me. You know? That that's exactly how you, design and run 1 shots too, by the way. You just, scream something as loud as you can and see what happens. You're a fly anyway. Yeah. You're a fly. You're a fly. Start start being a fly. Like, just do it. You know? Not to, like, circle back to 2 conversations ago, but I was, you know, listening to Grant talk about the the motivation of, like, money and deadlines as a big source of creative inspiration. Holy shit. Felt that in in my in my heart, soul, and ass. Like, my guts. It's so much easier to create when you're getting paid for it. Yeah. There's the there's this real myth of like of like oh you sold out and you can sell out and there's there's ways ways where you can do things but there's and there's a myth of the starving artist, and I'm, like, oh, well, you need to be a bit mad, I need to be a bit starving to create absolute cutie. It's, like, you need a bit of grit, you need, like, you need some badness in your life to write about, but it's, like, I've I've I've I've lived with depression for the last 27 years, and it's never helped me write anything, but I've written about it a lot. Yeah, sure. And I think that's the like, like being able to being able to support people and to do this as as a living really gives you a firm base to approve from. Mhmm. Yeah. And, you know, finding the this is a weird way to phrase it, I'll admit. Like, finding the fun in the things that have historically hurt you is kinda, like, creatively satisfying. I I'm I'm working on something for the show. We do, like, 2 miniseries a year, and I'm pulling a lot of inspiration from, like, my religious trauma growing up. Yeah. Which religion? Mormonism. Oh. Fun one. Supernatural. That's a doozy. That's a doozy. That's one of the good ones. What a good trauma religion. Yeah. And I I I don't mean good, like, morally right. No. Yeah. Like, you know, one of the one of Texturally rich. Yeah. Like, it's it's a bigger one, but it's still a little indie. You know? It's like the followers just so everyone is found. Like, you know Ironically ironically, it's just Mexican. Is the honey heist of religion if we're being real. I love that. Willow, if you clip that, I swear to god. But it's so good. No. I I'm gonna say, like Oh god. You know, I I as as a person who likes to write from, like, places of pain, I guess, it it's a real easy well to go down to when you're in desperation mode. Mhmm. And finding the stuff that is, like, relatable to you personally is really cool and a lot of fun to do. So, like, you know, a a lot of people write games, you know, Grant and myself included about, like, their mental health struggles, their childhood struggles, anything. And to turn shit like that into, in my case, a game about rabbits dealing with faith or, like, putting goats in spire or you know? Like, the the rabbits about faith is an interesting point, because you've gotta be you've gotta keep it at arm's length. Mhmm. Yeah. And it's like like any game which is actually about depression, and any game which accurately recreates the feelings of depression is a horrible game to play, and no one should play it. And and it always comes across as like as like, preachy isn't the right word, but like but it it never lands, It's too on the nose, and I think that if you put an elf in it, you put a rabbit in it, you know, like like, fundamentally, what all all of my dumb games are about are about misbehaving. Mhmm. Yeah. And That's true. And, like, generally, like, you are agents of chaos in a structured world, and you and you are going to misbehave for personal gain, and people don't want you to do that. And that's kind of how it feels being an artist. I mean, yes. Yes. The more the more Grant talks, the more I'm like, I pulled a lot of my philosophy from reading this guy's case. You say stuff. I'm like, oh my god. I do that. I I love chaos in a structured world. We just did sock goblins, and that's exactly that. It's it's goblins stealing socks from people in a game, and I'm like, yeah. That's exactly right. It's the only game that matters. I love that. It's it's up there. I like that one a lot. Poor students, if you're out there, bang your game, kids. Bang your fucking game. But no. Like, I you know, it it's a lot of indie creators and a lot of big name creators we're being real. Like, video every everyone does this where it's like, I'm making an x, but it's really about y. And there's a lot of ways to do that good and a lot of ways to do it, like, way too heavy handed. I don't I can't tell you how many, like, free Itch games I've downloaded. It was like, this game is going to be about depression or bipolar or whatever, and, like, it's, like, a lot of, like, 1 sentence, like, lines that are meant to jab at you, and it's like, I've read 50 of these for sure. You know? Like, there's there's definitely an art form to it. Yeah. Which, I mean, is like, that's that's the point of the designers, to make it art, and make it something that isn't just, yeah, preachy. I mean, not preachy, but Yeah, exactly. No. Preachy heavy there's a place for it for sure, like it has their place. The stuff I'm drawn to is, like, when it's I guess, not, like, like, a subtext per se. But it evokes. Right? It resonates. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's that's what think that's that's what we aim for, especially in a in a in a medium, which is as hands off as game design. Mhmm. You have to get stuff which, like a lot of the stuff we do for, research and world building will take real world things and change the names a bit, and that's the and, like, like, because it's it's easy. And, also, that means too. And fun, and free. Wikipedia's free, and you can just put words together and just smush them. But if it if it feels real enough to hang together or if it feels it feels impactful enough to talk to people, Mhmm. And that's more powerful than it being accurate Mhmm. I think. And on the nose too. Yeah. It's even fun, like, when you don't intend to write something like that and it turns into, like, something that meant a lot to someone because they were going through it and saw that in there. And it's like, oh, yeah. Well, then that's in there for you. Alright. Well, I am actually really a bit to questions. Hang on. Hang on. Sorry. You're actually really a bit to questions. Actually, really bit to questions. Yeah. Sorry. My brain I I I I didn't wanna say anything, Willow, but I thought you were becoming actually a bit towards questions. We could do. Yeah. My brain my brain's a little fried today, so I apologize for that. But You're good. You're you're you're doing very well. I like, you've you've you're you're you're rolling well with the punches that Grunt and I are putting down by refusing to talk about punch Oh, yeah. By refusing to answer the questions. I'm just observing a wrestling match here and just I wouldn't say we're re I was not wrestling. More We're dancing, baby. Sport Yeah. Dancing. That there you go. I love that. Just 2 idiots in a room have having an excuse to share a philosophy together while Willow watches in horror as we talk to shut up. Well, this is what I wanted. It wasn't It's true. It's true. It was more space for you guys to talk more than anything. Willow arranged a blind date for us, Grant. Yeah. So how's it going so far? Are you liking each other? I don't know if he likes me. I'm really nervous. He's so cute. It wasn't not blind enough for me. I know too much about him. He told me he has religious trauma, like, out the gate. Yeah. Just like Too open. Yeah. He's moving to I don't I don't even know what he does for a living. Then that's by design. Give us a question, Waller. Give us a question. Yeah. Question. Well, I am curious for specifically outside of, you know, Honey Heist being played on Critical Role, that's pretty goddamn cool, what is though the coolest thing outside of that that has happened to you in the TTRPG space? Easy. Easy. Easy. Easy. Easy. Easy. Easy. Yes. Great question. The 2nd coolest thing that's have happened to me is when I was too scared to talk to Greg Stoltze, at the 1st Gen Con I went to. Oh. I was it was, like, Spire hadn't really landed yet. I hadn't made my name as a designer. Greg Stoltze has written so he was one half of Unknown Armies, it was him and Scott Titans who wrote it. And I don't think any game has been more influential on my on my work and on on what I think is cool. So, I was too nervous to talk to him. That was the 2nd coolest thing, but the 1st coolest thing is I got I got a message I got a message, oh, good about 3 years ago. I got a message from, 2 years ago from from an old folks home, America. And they had and they were doing, like, activity days and Yeah. And, like, game days for the for the for for the the residents who lived there. And they had run 6 tables of Honey Heist and got hats for everyone. Oh. What? Yes. It's so cool. And so and like and like and like I didn't buy the hats. I don't look after the old people. I didn't wash their bottoms or any of that stuff, but I had some small part in these people who'd never role played before in their lives put on a hat and be like, woah, I'm a criminal bear. And that's that's that's delightful. That rocks. That's what I want that's what I want to do. That's it, man. That's why I get up in the morning. So, yeah, that's that was that was that was pretty swish, I gotta say. Nothing feels better than someone telling you how much they appreciated what you did making someone's day. I know. Absolutely. And and using it in a way I hadn't thought of or, like, using it to bring people together and especially, like, you hear about, like, because because because my games are quite short you hear like a lot of they they get run at schools, like a lot of like kid groups play them. I know like there was there was a a class in the American school ran everyone is seagulls, which is 8th. It's everyone's seagulls is great. It's a deranged game where the main mechanic is yelling as loud as you can I love it? And making a noise like a seagull, and apparently, you have 16 kids all playing everyone as seagulls. If you're gonna play it if you're gonna play it with a group of people, that is that is the market for sure. It needs to be, like, out out in the playground or something, like, where everyone can go. No. Big amphitheater. Like, one of those medical theaters where everything echoes. You will not come out of that with your hearing intact. And, like like, I've I've I've met some people whose who whose games I really like, and, you know, like, again at that 1st Gen Con we got we got invited to the fancy party, we got invited to the secret party which I didn't know about, but the organizer of Gen Con runs, like, runs a room party on the Saturday night, and we went along, and I standing there standing there next to the boxed wine, which I insisted they opened. I'm standing there next to the boxed wine necking necking of room temperature white, and and I'm talking to this I'm talking to this guy in a fucking cape. Dude, Deuce turned up. Deuce Deuce turned up in in, like, in, like, a red velvet cape cape with with an ermine lining. Uh-huh. And and, like, I was making a joke about about how we, like, oh, no one here has ever heard of my games, you know. Oh, like, oh, you don't know about spy. You don't know about do you know about Honey Heist? No. That's quite popular. I never heard that one. Oh, what have you written, mate? Dungeons and Dragons or something? He said, no. I write Pathfinder. Oh. Shoot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was, oh, cool. Cool. Well well, I've ruined this. Yeah. Goodbye. And I I went I chain smoked outside until it was time to leave. I I'm gonna go now. Yeah. So now I don't, like So that's top 3 experience then. I I I will also I will also say, so last year at Gen Con we went all out we got everyone from like everyone from the company, we all flew out and we shared a house in not a great neighborhood in Indianapolis, this like like There's there's so few great ones. Yeah. This one was proper fucking sketchy. But we shared a house and, on the Saturday night, I didn't get to go. I wasn't invited to the secret room party, but we took over this place called West Fork Whiskey Bar. And the great thing about West Fork Whiskey Bar is it's a 20 minute drive to the convention center so no motherfucker would ever go there. And so we took it over, and we had, all the all the GMs who were who were running games for us, and all of the people who were working on our stall, and all the members of the team and, like, people who we like from the industry. We brought everyone along, and we had pizza and dried whiskey, and it was it was really, like, awkward we put this together, I'm here with my friends and I'm the other side of the world, and that was really exciting and we can't afford to do it ever again. But you got the one end. That's the important part. At least happened 1. One thing that I actually really, really wanted to ask with having you on is I want to know some of your favorite TTRPGs personally, ones that you love, love to run, love to play, all of that. I I want to hear them all, please. I don't get to run and play as much as I used to, because, it's it's what I do all day every day. Yeah. For sure. And so, like, in the evening, I just wanna I wanna build toy soldiers Yeah. And smoke marijuana. And and and and during the day, I have I have I have to, like, have proper grown up thoughts about role playing games. So, like like like, the prospect of being, yeah, you know, like a real job. The prospect of of of being in character for 4 hours is often quite exhausting. Mhmm. But obviously I've played a lot of games and I've got a a broad a broad history. So the games which are really important to me are, see if I can remember, Dogs in the Vineyard, which was Debenham Baker's, kind of the first thing which she put out properly. It's it's off sale now, and the reason why it's off sale is it's problematic religious beliefs, because you put, it's a it's a brilliant pitch for a game, you play teenage, virgin, Mormon, missionaries, who are also Sorry. I Vietnam mode there for a second. It's, like, it's it's set in the old west, and broadly, you, like, you you you ride on your horse between these communities, and each community is riven with sin in some way, and it's up to you to how you excise the sin from the town and, like, are you kind? Are you, punishing, do you like do you try and reincorporate lost lost sheep, or do you execute them in the stream? Oh my. And, so it's hugely intense to play it's exhausting, and the the mechanics like the the mechanics are absolutely inspiring in the, it's basically poker played with dice and you're like you're making pairs and triples and matching them, but you can always add more dice by getting more violent. So so like so you start talking and you're like you're like oh I want I want to persuade this guy to tell me, where his son is because his son's been, his son's been mutilating sheep Mhmm. Or something. And and I I I roll and I fail. I'm like, okay, cool. I'm gonna get my I'm gonna get my fist dice into this and beat it out of him, and you get to grab that. And so, like, like, the only, like, the other fallout of that is, like, the more violence you bring in the more violence you will be you will be susceptible to. Yeah. And like then the the absolute tap muke is pulling your revolver, and everyone gets to describe their revolver and do the thing, and you have these really tense shoots there's a lot of pvp, there's a lot of like theological disagreements it's absolutely exhausting, but it's a fascinating game. And, yeah, it doesn't exist anymore. Vincent pulled it, because of the Mormon stuff. Mhmm. I don't blame him, but, yeah, it's a it's a powerful thing. Good call. Yeah. That's that's intense. I it's not cool, but I'm quite fond of 5th ed. I quite like Dungeons and Dragons. I think that it's it's the it's the McDonald's of food. Sometimes McDonald's of food and McDonald's Yeah. Well, I mean, you could eat Truly the champagne of wines. Yeah. I, like, it's, I really enjoy how you say, oh do you wanna play Dungeons and Dragons? Yeah, I know what that is, cool, and I come along and you ignore the rules and you and, like, you use the systems to tell a story, you use the settings to tell a a story, and I've had tremendous fun with people who haven't done a lot of role playing before. But like generally like what I'd do is we'd set them up and there'd be like we'd set it in set it in school, so like like it would be like you like you go to you go to the school for adventures and it's your it's your final year project you have to go on an adventure. I love it. And so and so everyone's like and there's also there's a there's a genre of British fiction, which I don't know whether I don't know how big it is in the US, but called like like the Fantastic Five, like it's a it's an article Enid Blyton, and Enid Blyton did, did all these all these stories almost 100 years ago now where there are there are various posh boys and gels, and it gels not girls, and they go and they go and solve mystery of some kind. Okay. And there's there's generally a dog called Smudger or something along those lines, and they have they have iced buns and lashings of ginger beer. And so, like, we just take that and run D and D in it, and that was tremendously fun. Yeah. That's why everyone knows 5th edition. It's it's infinitely flexible, and it can be whatever you want and all the rules or take what you want and run with it. You know? I'm also gonna say, I really like 4th ed, and I think I think that, like, it's it's a it's a beautiful game system. It's far better it's far better at doing fights than any other industry. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, it's tremendous, but, unfortunately, they didn't put any role playing in it. Yeah. They skimped up on the role playing in my role playing experience. Of D and D is going from, like, doing combat and then going to role playing because of the the shifting tides. I really like the mecha hack, which is itself a hack of the black hack. I think the black hack's a really clever system. It's a it's a d 20 roll under system, which was the first one I ever saw, I thought I was really impressed with that, so I've run a bit of blackhack and mutanthack and I run a weak campaign of mecha hack for a while, and I think that system, is my I I really enjoy it for, let's have a quick go. End. Yeah. It's, like, it's, like, everything's there, and it's ready, and there's there's few choices for players to make aside from in the moment. Mhmm. So that's really cool. Also, honorable mentions, anything Chris McDowell writes Yeah. That's something that he did into the odds. He did, electric bastion land, and he'd done mythic bastion land. A mythic bastion land is so good as to be insulting to every other designer on the market. It's so fucking clever. He's put feelings in OSR, and it works. It's amazing. So Into the Odyssey is so fucking good. I love Into the Odd. Is in a, like, a fashion land. Oh my god. A 100 classes. A 100 classes, and that's what most of the book even is. Yeah. I mean, like, if if you're you're washed off to creating characters into the odd, like, wow. Oh, yeah. If you thought Baldur's Gate 3 was higher than making character in. Oh my god. We stuck a chord. I also wanna chip in on Sleep Away, from Jane Ag. Of Sleep Away. Yeah. Which is, like so, like, Wonder Home and Yazeeba are obviously incredibly clever, and I think that like Wonder Home was the bit where Belonging Outside Belonging as a as a dice format really found its feet, because like because, Avery Mcdaldo I think it's Mcdaldo, shit. Every older sorry, Every older invented it and there was a there was, like, the sort of brisk zine which she put out, and then Jay was, like, well, what if we made what made it into an actual big game? Mhmm. And so Wonder Home is really good for that, but I find that Wonder Home and Yaziba I don't have the conflict I'm after, and Sleep Away is really really cool because you play a bunch of queer teens at summer camp, and some all the adults die and something's trying to kill you. Naturally, yeah. It's a it's a fascinating way of doing horror, but also, like, showing how characters grew up and showing how people interact with each other in a separate situation. I think that's really cool. I like bite bite marks by Becky Anderson. So the Black Armada Games is the the company. So it's Becky and, her husband, Josh write games. They did Lovecraft Desk, which you might have heard of, yes, and a few a few other things with Bite Marks has it's an apocalypse world game. I don't normally go in for those but Becky came up with this absolutely genius way of getting around the fact that combat's kind of boring in Apocalypse world, which is, you have you have a werewolf pack, and you you pick up, like, stress points on the pack, and and you you your pack gets stressed the more, like, if if you have arguments, if you make out with each other, if you like like, basically, when you have strong feelings at one another and there's some quite nice moves for it, you charge up this this pack score. Mhmm. And then once you have 15 of it, you can spend it to defeat any obstacle you like. That's cool. Bite marks? I Yeah. And it's so it's it's so it's a game about werewolves as well. So the thing. Yeah. I knew about Black Armada because of Flotsam is, I think, the game that they made that I have of theirs. But, like, like, and that's that's that's a that's that's a brief that's a brief sort of surgeon around what I find interesting, but, like, yeah, I always think, like, it's it's really interesting to see when a creator has a voice and when they put that voice into their games and when you can see like or like this is what they care about, and this is what's interesting to them. And like much like you Willow, I don't play a lot of games, I buy I buy games and I read them and I consume them and generally I'm like Chris, my business partner Chris, he really likes buying games, he really likes owning games, and he has he has like a company that there there is a budget set aside for Chris, and so I just sort of a lot of it just filters down to me eventually. Which and so as Chrissy picked up the zone Yeah. And just, like, in terms of, like, like, game design, it's it's very nice. It's basically for the queen, but with some more rules in. Mhmm. But but, like, as far as the experience of opening the box goes and all VR and how rich it is Mhmm. And how, like, and how spooky and immediately interesting it is, very impressed. Yeah. Just it just picks you up. Like, it just stands out immediately. And I actually, I got it. So I backed, like, the kicks the backer kit, whatever which one it was, Kickstarter backer kit. You supported it. I supported it. Exactly. Crowdfunded. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I supported it. And then, we're, like, in the process of, like, moving and trying to sell our house. And so I had everything get sent up to my brother, and he got it, like, a few months ago. And I'm like, okay. You are coming down for Christmas, and I need you to bring the zone down for me. I don't think you understand. I've waited a year to open this case. I require it, and luckily, he did. But, no, it's beautiful. And and I love the fact that they went with the holographic cards too because I think it just ups the Really, really closer. Yeah. And then, like, it it's it's a beautiful experience opening. And the fact that, like, you're supposed to play it in a dark room with, like, glow sticks Yeah. It's so cool. Better. Right? Yeah. Get your spot. Yeah. That's why the old razzle dazzle. That's why I like, 10 candles too. Even, like, just that physical element of having all the candles lit. Like, that's that's what pains me that I don't have people in person because I love those games. I love those physical elements to games, and it's so hard to emulate online. Back in uni back in uni, which is what we call college, back in uni, I I've watched doctor who I know. I know where the cycle. I've watched my fair share. A, a guy a a guy in our game society, he he ran a Silent Hill game using World of Darkness. Which yeah, so it was it was 1 mortals back in the day, and the rules were that when you came into the room all the lights were off and you used a torch, and he deliberately bought the worst torches that he could that he could find and then left left them on till the batteries ran out. Oh my god. That's so so much. So so so we're sitting there trying to read our fucking Will the Darkner character Will the Darkner's character sheets by by flickering torchlight. And then he gave us on, like, in the 2nd session, an AM radio, and he illegally purchased an AM radio broadcaster in his laptop, which meant that whenever we got near to monsters, he just turned up the volume, and it has a thing. And, eventually, session 5, we just turned the radio off. Yes. It was really scary. That is that is the best core. To a concept. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Incredible. And I I don't have that I don't have that level of, commitment to my, like, to my to my hobby time, I don't think, or, like, like, like, to my social time in that one. I also spent a lot of time making a toy soldier or something. But one thing which we're trying to do in, in our in our convention games is we realize that so one of one of our rules is we pay every GM because a lot of a lot of places don't all give them free books or whatever, and they are doing the job for you. It's tacky. And then we realized that if we want to run enough games to make an impact, we couldn't afford to pay all of our GMs, and then then we'll run fewer games we'll make the games are running bigger. And so at gen con we've got, 6 multi multi table simultaneous games happening where we like so I'm planning on doing like a time traveling honey heist game where there's 6 tables running all at the same time. We've got like a game of orc borg, which is a mork borg hacker rope, you've played space orcs from warhammer, and you're you're but we're crossing it with crash pandas so you're all steering the same spaceship, and like and like we want to try and do like, like with the candles, like with the glow sticks, we want to try and get a bit of the, a bit of the atmosphere, a bit of the showmanship back into it. And I think like, like, if if people are if we're at Gen Con, people paying $10 a ticket or $5 ticket or have much, that means that we can afford to, like, okay, well, we'll we'll we'll we'll make sure that we'll spend the time and the effort briefing our GMs and writing a good scenario and hiring the best people to do this, and we'll get the props, and we'll do the thing, and we'll make sure we'll build the environment. And I think, like, it's I I I I grew up doing, like, before I was a game designer and before I was a games journalist, I used to do immersive games. I used to do, like, like, live games quite often, like, we used to do a game called zombie larp, which was, in an abandoned shopping mall in Reading. And so holy shit yeah we had we had 120 players, and and then and on any and 4 rounds, and for 1 round you were a person, and every other round you were a zombie and that you had to try and get out. And it was it was it was it was it was all nerf it was I've still got the fire axe but there you can see it. Oh, hell yeah. So cool. It was all nerf. No calls. Yeah. Like, no no, like, oh, I've been hit twice in the arm. Let me note this down. Everything did one damage. Shut up. Both again. We're streamlined in this. And and, like, and we used to do, like, I, me me and Maz ran a game, over a decade ago now in Melbourne in the in the city center back when we lived in Australia, and it was called it was called Spirits Walk, and so people went around the city center down alleyways and found found masked weirdos, dressed up as spirits of the city, and we got them to commit social transgressions. So, like like like, they found they found the stepping girl, and the stepping girl had, like, a disco ball mask and a disco disco ball dress, and she gave you an MP 3 player with 2, with 2 headphones and so and and and so like the deal is you have to put you have to find a partner and useful if they were playing the game but not required Put 1 air button each and then dance according to the instructions you were given. And we gave people different instructions, which made it seem like one of them was falling for the other, and the and the other one wasn't into it, and, like, and I just, like, re like, fuck her, I wouldn't pull now. But, like, like, there's something about the something about, like, right, this is happening right now. And every game we play is right this is something happening right now and how how high can we push that is it's kind of exciting thing to think about. I adore that. That's so good. So cool. Man, I bet my my brain is cooking right now. I know. It's so good. It's, like, what? That that was that was the most involved one. That was, like Yeah. But, like, you know There was a lot of goofy shit, which I haven't mentioned. I love the theater of it. I I love, like, I think if you're gonna do live games like that, like, you know, like, even if, like, you do a podcast and you host a live version of your show, like, in a theater or something, like, do something goofy to bring the audience and have them be part of it. You know? Like Like and it's and it's like it's it's the idea of, like, I mean, and this is this is strictly for immersive theater, but I suppose it's part of, part of live streaming as well if you've got that audience. But being able, like, being able to set it in Melbourne and and have our people go, like, well, they've walked past the street to they walk past the street past the street to work every single day. Yeah. And tonight, there are 12 couples dancing in the street, while a disco ball lunatic spins and yells. Yeah. And all of them are going to have an awkward social situation while this is happening. Can I get to where they you did you see that out there? What the fuck was Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And like and I will say like like first night we ran it we got a lot of people like fucking with us yeah because of course because it was open you know it was and like and like and and because, the people who were running it weren't quite weren't quite sure of the level of how much they they could dispute, oh, fuck off. Mhmm. And so and so there's a measure of, like, engaging with the the crowd rather than, like, no. We're just we're doing something weird and you can watch Yeah. As opposed to this is a game for you to play and that's kind of a Was this, like, just a thing that, like, they just decided to do? Was this part of, like, an event club title? It was a so there was a it was an organization in Australia called Pop Up Playground. Okay. It was a Sarah Lothian and, Rob. Oh, I forget his surname. Bugger. But they, they run live games, and they happened to be at a game which we ran in Bristol, and then they really liked it. They interviewed us briefly for for a for a documentary they were making, and then we moved to Australia. And and it just so turned out the day we were landing, they were in Sydney despite living in Melbourne, and they were doing like they were doing like a presentation at a local university. Yeah. So I think I I've been awake for like 2 weeks at this point and I stagger in. I'm like, hello there. I'm really interested in playing and learning about live games now. And somehow I'd, Yeah. Could you pat me gently until I stop kicking? Do you need a You wanna warm milk, please? I mean, when we are, I mean, especially we're getting off topic, you know, the topic is games, but I think there's, I'm really excited to see how we can light with 12 candles, light with dread, light with these games which have a centerpiece and which have artifice to them, and how, like, how right and ritual. I you you've referenced DIE earlier, like DIE has an awful lot of the ritual around it, and, like, we keep saying this is important, do it. Mhmm. And if you do those things and go through those steps, then the game resonates better. Yeah. And, like, we had to get we had to get in special like, we had to come up with new special safety tools for Die because it's such a bleedy game, like it's a dangerous game to run-in the like for the listener in Die you play an ordinary person who makes a role playing game character Yep. And then gets sucked into the world of the role playing game. So cool. And their role playing game is made out of all their traumas and fears. And so As all great ones are. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, like and it's this it's this absolutely, like, cathartic heartbreaking experience Mhmm. To take part in, so we had to be super fucking careful about, like, giving that to people to make sure they could do it safely. Yeah. But, I I I mean, we we try to we try to put in safety tools, we try to be, like, we want people to be able to play as hard as they can and then pull back rather than, rather than get upset. I did I did, run a game, of Honey Heist University. Not so at a university. Yeah. At a university. I thought there's, like, a spin off game I didn't know about. I know. Honey House U. That'd be so good. I run again Honey House, and I asked people for their lines and veils beforehand, which is a tool like where, and again, I know I know you're you're both nodding, but for your audience, it's a tool where you say, oh, I'm okay with this being alluded to in the game, but I don't want to see it. I don't want any of this in the game at all. Yes. And this is Honey Heist bear in mind. And so, one of the, one of the players said, oh I really don't like bees. Oh, okay, okay. What's the what's the problem with bees? Oh, it's if they're swarming if there's more than 1 bee. Okay, well, there's only ever gonna be 1 bee in this game. Is there anything else you want me to take out the game? And they were like well, yeah, I don't like it when cars aren't where cars should be It's like, oh, okay, I'm gonna make you the driver and that's up to you. Okay. You can control the car. Yeah. I'd like I I think, eventually, like, they ended up getting I think I think they got a Zamboni because it didn't count as a car, and that was okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. I mean, like, we were we're laughing, and it's a funny solution, but it's like, kudos on you for, like, instead of this removing cars from the fucking gamers, like, thing where, like It's Wombus. Okay. They're all the character covers. Yeah. Like like, As you said, Willow, the fun part is where a bear drive car. Yeah. 1 bear 1 bear drive car and Bear drive car? No. I don't drive car. That's not where a car should be. That's not where a car shouldn't be around bad. I'm glad that they didn't count Zamboni as a car because there's only 1 place a Zamboni should be. Yeah. This is true. Oh my god. I think, like, with like, they they use a lot of rickshaws, like this car adjacent truck trains car adjacent transports which they drove, but like I I think that it's like there is a there's a school of thought, especially around the old guard that you shouldn't take care of people at your table, and they're like and and they'll work it out. And, like, if you've been playing with the same people for 20 years, sure. You like, you're you're doing it. You're doing it already, and you and you're not you're not aware that that's what you're doing. You already have those systems in place and and conversations already had. Yeah. Like, yeah. Like, oh, don't mention that he gets upset. That's, you know Yeah. As opposed to hey there, what don't what don't you want in this? Because this is experience, and and that's, like, and it can be quite confronting to some people, especially things like, hey, I'm a stranger, Tell me all of your fears. Yeah. Tell me. We we do that on the show, especially because we're all I I you know, I run the show exclusively with basically strangers, so I'm always like, if there's anything that, like, you know, I'll describe the game we're gonna play to them, and if there's anything here that you want me to only allude to or just cut out entirely, let me know. And and it's great. And I always have the counterargument because I think the older generations like to do where it's like, I don't do any of that baby stuff. I just tell them that my games are the hardest shit. If they don't like it, they can leave. And it's like, my guy, that's a safety tool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're setting up the expectations right there. Just because you just because you know, like, you can cock. I don't use pronouns. I'm a he. My guy. I'm I'm afraid to tell you this. Mhmm. Mhmm. Obviously, there's, like, more questions that we can ask, but, no, this has just been great. Like, it's just been really it's nice. I really enjoyed, like, all the laughs, of course, but, like, getting to, like, connect philosophically and talk about, like, the the the funds and the the necessities of the genres and stuff. I think we've all sounded very clever. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Positively. I'm glad that we're smart. Sound like sound like professionals. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Like, we know we're fucking thinking that we're shit together. Yeah. For sure. I mean, I I listen. I I I know we're towards the end here. I just you know, just to reemphasize it, I mean it. Like like, Grant Howard opened the door whether he realizes it or not for me and to really nail down the style of my voice and genre in the show, so getting to just talk with you about RPGs is, like, I I can't believe I'm at a point in my life where that can happen, and I can talk to somebody like that. So, like Like okay. So, like like, firstly, you you you shot your shot, which is important. You gotta shoot your shot. And Yep. I will say, I turned down a few shots. Hon. Oh, hello. So it's a cat. And there is. Surprise us. You, you shot your shot which is important, but secondly, we have the same first name. Yeah. And no one no one with the same first name has asked me to be on a podcast of 3 people before, which I I have and I've gotta say. I well, I think you've done very well not, like, not referring to 1 of us. Yeah. Let's try this this episode. Yeah. Try and get confused once. Yeah. Try try and avoid it at all costs. Just don't mention any of us by name. Yeah. I know. Could could the esteemed gentlemen in the baseball cap? This is my question for you. Yeah. No. This I've never esteemed anything. No. I'm I I'm just, like, so thankful that you were even willing to do this too because, like Oh, it's been fun, isn't it? Yeah. It is. And it's Like like, I'd like I I listened to your show, and you seemed like you got your head screwed on, and you you had that excellent flying ship metaphor. And, like, like, you like, so firstly, you had that excellent flying ship metaphor metaphor and then whether you wouldn't stop barracking him and really like like riding him around and being rude I really like that in a host So I thought I thought, oh, I I I'd good for a bit that. You've been quite different, unfortunately, but that's okay. You're really polite, actually. What the fuck? It's only for Grant. I'll I'll only harass Grant. Right. One day, I'll make my honey heist, and she'll treat me with the respect that he's worth. Even then, I don't think so. No. No. No. No. No. After Anthony and and and after Anthony March in the paranormal episode, no. No. Never. That's that's that's fair. That is fair. We we had Willow on our show, and and, our characters butted heads a lot. So so now Willow and I have a dynamic locked in. It's wonderful playing a game with someone who you like and is also willing to just tear the shit out of you. Yeah. Yes. Yes, yeah. Don't be too precious about it. Every time I play a game with Chris, I'm a co author, he kind of ends up becoming a a secondary, adversarial GM. I know a few people like Not adversarial to the players. Adversarial to me directly. You personally. And, like, and, and, like, and, like, and, like, he would he will with a with, like, not a straight face, with a grin, turned to me, and no budget idea until you fuck up. I I have a player who I work with a lot who who who who played the game with me recently. And, like, I was just, like, telling, like, one of the other players, like, to see what they can do. We were just riffing back and forth. And he turns to her and goes, you're not supposed to help him. You're not supposed to make him feel like he's succeeding. Like, you gotta be metered to Grant. I'm like, get the fuck up. Not in front of the new place. Stop it. I'll kill you. And then before I'll kill you again. In game. In game. In game. Yeah. In in Minecraft. Yeah. Yeah. We'll hop on Minecraft after this, and you're dead. Oh my god. No. But I Willow, thank you a ton for organizing this. This is a blast. Yeah. No. Thank you, guys. No. This was awesome, and I guess, like, final thing. You know, Grant, yeah people know where to find you, I'll put all the links there. Which one? Grant Nordy, Grant Nordy. Got her, Finally. How dare you? But, Grant, how because I didn't actually have you do it properly at the beginning, before we finally end off here, can you tell everyone where they can find you and where they can get your awesome games and be able to play Honey Heist for themselves and also commit vehicular manslaughter? Absolutely. For for Honey Heist, simply type the words Honey Heist into Google, and you'll find that a lot of other layouts that are better than mine. So take those. If you wanna commit vehicular bear manslaughter. I am g s howitt, that's g s h o w I t t on most things. Not g show it, which, which is it's fun to pronounce it that way, but it's not show it. I I get I get that a little bit, but, just out anyway. And if you want to see, like, our big sort of grown up games, if if if hearing me chat with Granite here made you think, like, oh, what a what a clever and aerodynamic fellow, I'd love to pay over £40 for I think it's something he made, you can go to rrdgames.com, which is our big our big fancy new website and I want you to know, on all the product photography that we have on that website, if you see a cool moody looking picture of a book with fog vape ring. Perfect. Because the smoke machine broke. Yeah. Absolutely. Gotta make it yourself. Hey. It's being resourceful. Oh, oh, oh, we hired a photographer. He had lights. We had a set. He He was just like, could you vape over this? Yeah. Yeah. I think so. Yeah. Running over there right now. Yes. You can so, yeah, r I d games dot com, you can get all of our all of my free games are on there. All of our expensive games are on there. We have, especially for the American audience, unlike a lot of Brits, we have we have a fulfillment center in America as well, so you can get things with reasonable postage, although still crazy postage because 2024. But you know you can you can you can have the games that's nice, and if you are interested in the the only one other thing I will say is please search for Eat the Reich, and throw a pre order at it because I don't sell it through the website and it's, it's big dumb fun. Hell, yeah. And all of those links, of course, will be in the description just to actually be able to find the user. I I always used to say that when I did podcast. I never put a link in anywhere. Well, I I follow Willow does. Oh, wow. I'll I'll vouch for her. She does. Oh, has to see. She has to see. Yeah. I I I put my links there. I want people to find the games. Like, mostly, it's because I want people to find the games because sometimes it can be hard to know where to go. That is the point of your show. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It it helps. It helps. Come come to think of it, yeah, it might it might be. Well, Willow and I got that sister show thing going on. We're taking a whole bunch of, games hyping up creators. So when we say link in the description, we kinda have to meet it. Yeah. But oh my goodness. Yeah. No. This was absolutely great, absolutely chaotic and tons of fun. Thank you so much, Grant, for coming on, to do this with me. I hope everyone had a great time listening. Maybe we'll figure out how to do something like this again. I don't know. We'll see. We'll figure it out. Yeah. But, yeah, thank you so much, grands, for coming on. Thank you everyone for listening. And, yeah, end of the episode because someone has to go eat. Bye. People have to eat. Bye, Willow. Bye. Bye. Love you. Everyone just starts screaming.